From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Apr 2 20:46:41 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id UAA25697 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:46:41 +0200 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25467 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:46:29 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id KAA07492 for linux-aviation@mail.nl.linux.org; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:46:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 10:46:12 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: GPS Interface Software Message-ID: <19990402104612.A5379@netcom13.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Fri Apr 2 10:16:05 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS interface software, so here's some food for thought. Personally, I think this is one of the more useful pieces of software. I like having the ability to upload "user" waypoints and routes to the unit before a flight, as well as the ability to download the flight track when I return home (mostly for soaring flights). I own a Garmin 89 which I choose partly because of it's compact size, and in part because I knew there was Unix based interface software for it. For the most part, I've been quite pleased with it. On the other hand, I get the impression that the general situation still leaves *much* to be desired. Many of the manufacturers have taken a very Microsoft "like" attitude and won't release interface specs (as I recall, even the Garmin software was written by reverse engineering the protocol with serial port logging software). There's also the problem that the file formats (for waypoints, routes, etc.) are all different. I would like to add a feature to fplan that allows you to upload an fplan computed "route" to the GPS unit, but the problems I mentioned above make this dificult. Michael Johnson, who has been helping with the design of a Gnome, Gtk+ interface for fplan had an interesting idea; develop a device independent interface for GPS units, in the same spirit as SANE (Scanner Acces Now Easy) which was developed to support all the different scanners out there. I love the idea, but I suspect it's a very daunting project. As I mentioned above, I own a Garmin, so I don't know much about the other units. Could some of you shed some light on what the general situation is for some of the other manufacturers??? Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Micro$oft free since 1987!!! -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | Where would you like to go tomorrow? o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sat Apr 3 00:13:43 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id AAA27926 for linux-aviation-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:13:43 +0200 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27923 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:13:33 +0200 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA25722 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990402135449.009ad1a0@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 13:54:49 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software In-Reply-To: <19990402104612.A5379@netcom13.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 10:46 AM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS >interface software, so here's some food for thought. Personally, I >think this is one of the more useful pieces of software. I like having >the ability to upload "user" waypoints and routes to the unit before a >flight, as well as the ability to download the flight track when I >return home (mostly for soaring flights). ... > As I mentioned above, I own a Garmin, so I don't know much about >the other units. Could some of you shed some light on what the general >situation is for some of the other manufacturers??? The main problem is that there is no standardization other than the NMEA output messages. Any interface for uploading and downloading routes will have to be customized for each vendors' box. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sat Apr 3 21:03:19 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA24550 for linux-aviation-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:03:19 +0200 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24547 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:03:05 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id LAA08065 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:02:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 11:02:56 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software Message-ID: <19990403110256.A6455@netcom12.netcom.com> References: <19990402104612.A5379@netcom13.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990402135449.009ad1a0@158.222.8.12> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990402135449.009ad1a0@158.222.8.12>; from Brian Lloyd on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:54:49PM -0800 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Sat Apr 3 10:46:54 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:54:49PM -0800, Brian Lloyd wrote: > At 10:46 AM 4/2/99 -0800, you wrote: > > > > I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS > >interface software, so here's some food for thought. Personally, I > >think this is one of the more useful pieces of software. I like having > >the ability to upload "user" waypoints and routes to the unit before a > >flight, as well as the ability to download the flight track when I > >return home (mostly for soaring flights). > ... > > As I mentioned above, I own a Garmin, so I don't know much about > >the other units. Could some of you shed some light on what the general > >situation is for some of the other manufacturers??? > > The main problem is that there is no standardization other than the NMEA > output messages. Any interface for uploading and downloading routes will > have to be customized for each vendors' box. > Yup, absolutely. Michael's idea is that it would be much better to have one single piece of software to do this, rather than a different one for each type of unit. Not an easy task, but possible in principle (just getting the protocol info is unquestionably the most difficult part since in most cases it will require reverse engineering). What I was looking for, was some feedback from owners of other units. Unit type, availability of software, and if the manufacturer has any concept of "fair use" and publishes the communication protocol for anyone to use, or takes the amoebic slime ball approach and zealously guards it. -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, | "Once you have flown, -(*)- | you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there o/ \o | you have been, there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sun Apr 4 04:09:41 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id EAA17061 for linux-aviation-list; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 04:09:41 +0200 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA16762 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 04:09:07 +0200 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA02569 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:09:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:08:59 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Lloyd To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software In-Reply-To: <19990403110256.A6455@netcom12.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, John Peterson wrote: > On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:54:49PM -0800, Brian Lloyd wrote: > > The main problem is that there is no standardization other than the NMEA > > output messages. Any interface for uploading and downloading routes will > > have to be customized for each vendors' box. > > > Yup, absolutely. Michael's idea is that it would be much better to have > one single piece of software to do this, rather than a different one > for each type of unit. Not an easy task, but possible in principle (just > getting the protocol info is unquestionably the most difficult part since > in most cases it will require reverse engineering). > > What I was looking for, was some feedback from owners of other units. > Unit type, availability of software, and if the manufacturer has any > concept of "fair use" and publishes the communication protocol for > anyone to use, or takes the amoebic slime ball approach and zealously > guards it. My apollo SL-60 has the protocol(s) described in the manual (I was surprised). It isn't very detailed but it gets you a lot further along than you might otherwise get. What doesn't appear to be documented is the protocol for uploading/downloading database info. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane (916) 676-6399 - voice Suite 1 (916) 676-3442 - fax Cameron Park, CA 95682 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 5 17:32:48 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id RAA13497 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:32:48 +0200 Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13494 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:32:38 +0200 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UBMI-0005cN-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:32:18 -0600 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UBMH-00067B-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:32:17 -0600 Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:32:17 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lloyd" at Apr 3, 99 06:08:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org First off, I'm new to the list. I've been working on using linux for aviation stuff for a while and just found out about the list. Trimble seems pretty free with info in using the OEM units they make at least. I have some sv6-cm3 variants. They have a C interface library for free in the net and after much arm twisting I got a printed manual as well. Take a look at the trimble web site for info on the SV6-CM3. I have a bunch of the units. They are OEM units, (made to be built into something) No keypad, no display, no case. Just a tiny board which will sit on a credit card and leave a fair amount of space around the edges. They have 2 serial ports and will take and use Diff. correction info. They need a regulated 5 volt power supply and rs-232 line drivers to plug straight to something like a laptop or palm pilot. They need an external antenna. In any event I have a bunch and am asking ~50.00 each. If there is enough interest we could get a bulk purchase of amplified antennas to have a complete package. The antennas should be about $50.00 as well. Last I checked, trimble wanted $180.00 for units with these features, there are several options for the CM3, these units have them, in lots of 100 boards. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Apr 6 01:01:43 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id BAA09630 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 01:01:43 +0200 Received: from mailsrv.frc.com (mail.frc.com [208.235.135.211]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09627 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 01:01:35 +0200 Received: from ibex.frc.com (sloth.frc.com [172.20.10.21]) by mailsrv.frc.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA2DA0 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:59:24 -0400 Received: from meierrj by ibex.frc.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m10UIKx-0007t9C; Mon, 5 Apr 99 18:59 EDT From: "Dr. Robert J. Meier" To: "Linux-Aviation" Subject: Hamiltonian for flight? Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:14:18 -0400 Message-ID: <000001be7fba$07caac00$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Aeronautical physicists, I am looking for the physics formula that demonstrates that unpowered aerodynamic flight is characterized by a constant glide ratio (as opposed to the parabolic curve of ballistic flight). After too many years, I don't remember the detailed derivation and have been unable to find it either on the web or in my old textbooks. I vaguelly remember that it involved evaluating a Hamiltonian. I vaguelly remember showing that for some sets of constants (air density, mass, drag coefficient, moment of inertia, ???) the Hamiltonian was stable and minimized for a path that dropped a proportionate distance for a given curve length (i.e. constant glide ratio). I vaguelly remember not worrying about the sets of constants where the Hamiltonian was unstable. The equivalent of this would be to prove that the vertical component of lift and drag is constant. I seem to remember that proving the contancy of lift and drag forces was much more complicated than evaluating the Hamiltonian. I further remember that completely solving the Hamiltonian was too complicated, but that proving a constant glide ratio was straightforward. I think my basic problem is that I am missing one of the Hamiltonain components. o Gravitational Potential (m g z) <= altitude energy o Kinetic Energy (- m v^2 /2) <= energy of motion o Atmospheric compression (Cp p S v^2) <= wing loading o ??? = what am I forgetting? Thank you, Bob - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Apr 6 03:52:29 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id DAA30859 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:52:29 +0200 Received: from netcom9.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA30532 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 03:52:19 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom9.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id SAA20720 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:52:17 -0700 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: New Project: electronic logbook for Unix Message-ID: <19990405185217.A20478@netcom9.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Mon Apr 5 18:48:37 PDT 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org I wanted to announce that I have started on the development of a simple electronic logbook for Unix/Linux using Thomas Driemeyer's xmbase-grok database manager. If you haven't used grok before, you can find it at http://www.IN-Berlin.DE/User/bitrot/grok.html It's a user friendly database manager designed for small applications (say a few 1000 records) where postgresql or the like is overkill. It's perfect for rolodex files, bibliographies, html bookmarks, etc. BTW, it requires the motif (or lesstif?) widgets. It had been awhile since I had used grok, but after a couple hours of tinkering to refresh my memory, I concluded this approach would give users 95% of what they would want. The built in entry forms editor would also allow simple modifications by end users to suit personal tastes. Personally, I'm still not convinced of the utility of electronic logbooks. As some have pointed out, you still need a paper logbook for endorsements with signatures. In my experience, it's not uncommon for an FBO to ask to see my logbook to verify recent experience, and I don't own a laptop! The real advantage I see is when you are very close to the 90 day limit for carry passengers, or need to compute total time in type, etc and would rather not do the mental juggling or arithmetic. These sorts of things appear to be easily impremented using the grok approach. With my current schedule, I dont expect to have anything ready for at least a couple of weeks. However, I didn't want to have duplicate efforts going on. Also, if you'd like to help in some way, drop me a note. Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | The box said; "requires Windows NT -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | 4.0 or better", so I installed Linux. o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Apr 7 02:46:44 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id CAA28439 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:46:44 +0200 Received: from truth.softcafe.net (root@truth.softcafe.net [153.105.252.98]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28436 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:46:35 +0200 Received: from cc72689-a (beach.romp.com [24.5.137.122]) by truth.softcafe.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA19390 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:00:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990406174543.1e37901a@softcafe.net> X-Sender: dcg@softcafe.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:45:43 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Digital ChoreoGraphics Subject: Re: Hamiltonian for flight? In-Reply-To: <000001be7fba$07caac00$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 07:14 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: >Aeronautical physicists, > > I am looking for the physics formula that demonstrates that >unpowered aerodynamic flight is characterized by a constant glide >ratio (as opposed to the parabolic curve of ballistic flight). > > After too many years, I don't remember the detailed derivation >and have been unable to find it either on the web or in my old >textbooks. I vaguelly remember that it involved evaluating a >Hamiltonian. I vaguelly remember showing that for some sets of >constants (air density, mass, drag coefficient, moment of inertia, >???) the Hamiltonian was stable and minimized for a path that dropped >a proportionate distance for a given curve length (i.e. constant >glide ratio). I vaguelly remember not worrying about the sets of >constants where the Hamiltonian was unstable. > > The equivalent of this would be to prove that the vertical >component of lift and drag is constant. I seem to remember that >proving the contancy of lift and drag forces was much more >complicated than evaluating the Hamiltonian. I further remember >that completely solving the Hamiltonian was too complicated, but >that proving a constant glide ratio was straightforward. > > I think my basic problem is that I am missing one of the >Hamiltonain components. > > o Gravitational Potential (m g z) <= altitude energy > o Kinetic Energy (- m v^2 /2) <= energy of motion > o Atmospheric compression (Cp p S v^2) <= wing loading > o ??? = what am I forgetting? > >Thank you, > >Bob > Bob - I am not familiar with the formula in question, but you have the Kinetic and Potential Energies, and the drag. All that is missing is an expression for Lift as a function of 'v'. However, I cannot find, in my physics texts, such an expression. Perhaps an associate with an aerodynamics background (or textbook). The following is the lift as a function of the 'circulation' about the airfoil: F = p v L Gamma p is fluid density v is velocity of undisturbed fluid flow L is length of wing Gamma is the fluid circulation above & below the wing. I have seen Hamiltonians used for the equations of motion when there is no dissipation. I suppose it will work in the glider scenario if you assume negligable drag, in which case you could determine the limits of motion. Let me know what you work out. - Don Black - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Apr 9 09:35:31 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id JAA09753 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:35:31 +0200 Received: from netcom4.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom4.netcom.com [192.100.81.107]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09683 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:35:22 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom4.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id AAA15922 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:35:16 -0700 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Hamiltonian for flight? Message-ID: <19990409003516.A10188@netcom4.netcom.com> References: <000001be7fba$07caac00$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> <3.0.6.16.19990406174543.1e37901a@softcafe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19990406174543.1e37901a@softcafe.net>; from Digital ChoreoGraphics on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 05:45:43PM +0000 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Fri Apr 9 00:23:42 PDT 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 05:45:43PM +0000, Digital ChoreoGraphics wrote: > At 07:14 PM 4/5/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Aeronautical physicists, > > > > I am looking for the physics formula that demonstrates that > >unpowered aerodynamic flight is characterized by a constant glide > >ratio (as opposed to the parabolic curve of ballistic flight). > > > >[...] > > > >Bob > > > > Bob - > > I am not familiar with the formula in question, but you have the > Kinetic and Potential Energies, and the drag. All that is missing is > an expression for Lift as a function of 'v'. > > However, I cannot find, in my physics texts, such an expression. Perhaps > an associate with an aerodynamics background (or textbook). The following > is the lift as a function of the 'circulation' about the airfoil: > > F = p v L Gamma > p is fluid density > v is velocity of undisturbed fluid flow > L is length of wing > Gamma is the fluid circulation above & below the wing. > > I have seen Hamiltonians used for the equations of motion when there > is no dissipation. I suppose it will work in the glider scenario if > you assume negligable drag, in which case you could determine the > limits of motion. > > Let me know what you work out. > - Don Black > I've never seen a variational solution of this problem, and I suspect one would be rather messy. Both C_l and C_d (the coefficents of lift and drag) for a whole aircraft (as opposed to just a wing) are difficult to express in closed form. They are usually determined experimentally (e.g. from a wind tunnel). The "proofs" I've seen simply equate the total force (the sum of gravitational, lift and drag forces) to zero. The argument for the existance of a stable solution (or extrema) is based on the observation that in a power law representation, the exponent for rate of growth of drag forces is larger than for lift forces, (with respect to both flow velocity and angle of attack). [Similar to how you show a falling body reaches some terminal velocity when you include aerodynamic drag]. You might find one of the cheap Dover texts to be of some help. I have "Theoretical Aerodynamics", by Milne-Thomson for when I need a refresher. By the way, I'm not trying to play bandwidth cop, but the post seems a little off topic. Is this for a Linux sim project? Or were you just guessing you'd get a better answer than from the MS Windows Aviation mailing list? Regards, JOhn -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Micro$oft free since 1987!!! -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | Where would you like to go tomorrow? o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sun Apr 11 20:28:38 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id UAA23163 for linux-aviation-list; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:28:38 +0200 Received: from frodo.gezernet.co.il (frodo.gezernet.co.il [192.115.6.11]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA23160 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:28:28 +0200 Message-Id: <199904111828.UAA23160@nl.linux.org> Received: (qmail 25698 invoked from network); 11 Apr 1999 18:28:18 -0000 Received: from butch.gezernet.co.il (192.115.7.241) by frodo.gezernet.co.il with SMTP; 11 Apr 1999 18:28:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 11727 invoked from network); 11 Apr 1999 18:28:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO gezernet.co.il) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 11 Apr 1999 18:28:42 -0000 To: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 02 Apr 1999 10:46:12 -0800." <19990402104612.A5379@netcom13.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:28:42 +0400 From: Amos Shapira Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Fri, April 2 1999, John Peterson wrote: | | I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS Not sure how much this is relevant to this forum, so I think any further discussion should be kept away from here, but speaking of GPS - last Saturday someone at my gliding club claimed that he saw an ad for a PalmPilot GPS reciever add-on, it seems to cost an arm and a leg (around 800-900 USD, including a PalmPilot III), but in return you get to program your own GPS. Anyone have any experience with it to share? Thanks, --Amos --Amos Shapira | "Of course Australia was marked for 133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st. | glory, for its people had been chosen Jerusalem 93 805 | by the finest judges in England." ISRAEL amos@gezernet.co.il | -- Anonymous - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 12 17:44:40 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id RAA26586 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:44:40 +0200 Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25843 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:44:22 +0200 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10WipJ-0006nH-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:40:45 -0600 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10WipH-0002nA-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:40:43 -0600 Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:40:43 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: <199904111828.UAA23160@nl.linux.org> from "Amos Shapira" at Apr 11, 99 09:28:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > > | I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS > > Not sure how much this is relevant to this forum, so I think any > further discussion should be kept away from here, First off, I gess I must be mistaken as to the intent of the mailing list. I thought it was all about planes, computers and the linux OS. I think This is a perfect subject along those lines. GPS interfaces and devices. Sticking computers and the most accurate navigational system to come along yet in the cockpit is a great goal. The OS would need to be open, reliable, fast and give good performance on cheap hardware, ie. LINUX. What am I missing? Secondly, with a dozen messages a week, what is the "Bandwidth" issue. If this is not the intended use of this mailing list, I have a dormant mailing list up and running we can start a list with that direction. > but speaking of GPS > - last Saturday someone at my gliding club claimed that he saw an ad > for a PalmPilot GPS reciever add-on, it seems to cost an arm and a leg > (around 800-900 USD, including a PalmPilot III), but in return you get > to program your own GPS. > > Anyone have any experience with it to share? Yes and no. I bought a palmpilot/GPS cable a few months ago. It didn't come with any software and was at one of those surplus/odd lot computer places. Cost me $5.00. I have not seen TSIP programs to talk to my trimble units so I would need to write something anyway. The cable is just a regular serial cable to fit the pilot. There IS a version of linux for the palm pilot, but it doesn't look quite ready for normal use. I guess the question is what do you want from a "Programmable" GPS? A laptop or palmtop or motherboard built into a metal case and mounted under the seats in the plane running linux could do incredible things with the info the GPS can provide. A $50.00 laptop from someplace like EBAY and $100 for a GPS rcvr and antenna could give you a realtime, moving display system using LINUX and some of the software packages listed in the FAQ which would stomp all over any "Official" Aircraft navigation system which cost up to 60 times the money. Granted it is not certified, but it is damn cheap insurance and a very nice SUPPLEMENTAL navigational aid. I thought that was one of the goals of the list. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 12 21:10:54 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA21132 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:10:54 +0200 Received: from frodo.gezernet.co.il (frodo.gezernet.co.il [192.115.6.11]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21129 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:10:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199904121910.VAA21129@nl.linux.org> Received: (qmail 12697 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 19:10:30 -0000 Received: from butch.gezernet.co.il (192.115.7.241) by frodo.gezernet.co.il with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 19:10:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 2508 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 19:10:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO gezernet.co.il) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 19:10:34 -0000 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:40:43 MDT." Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:10:34 +0400 From: Amos Shapira Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Mon, April 12 1999, "D.F.S." wrote: |> |> | I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS |> |> Not sure how much this is relevant to this forum, so I think any |> further discussion should be kept away from here, |First off, I gess I must be mistaken as to the intent of the mailing list. |I thought it was all about planes, computers and the linux OS. |I think This is a perfect subject along those lines. OK, I just hope we don't annoy anyone. |A laptop or palmtop or motherboard built into a metal case and mounted |under the seats in the plane running linux could do incredible |things with the info the GPS can provide. Yes, sure. I suppose as a glider (aka sail-plane) pilot, especially with club gliders (i.e. no private glider to stick my babies inside permanently), and with power, space (not just volume, but take a moment to remember how a glider pilot sits and try to find a place for the display) and sometimes weight limits being an issue, I look at quite the opposite extreme of the scale - lightweight, small, self-sufficient (i.e. no or very limited external battery) and hopefully lap-mountable box which can help me calculate from current data (IAS, TAS (=> wind), height, vertical speed, glider data, average thermal characteristics encountered so far and predicted by forecast etc.) where can I hope to reach from my current position. I'm relatively a beginner (just over 100 hours) and with no experience in advanced gliding and flight calculations (just did a 60Km mission in a Ka-8, though I usually fly PW-5's), but I see how such data can come useful in a nice gliding day in general and in competitions in particular. My point is that I'm in what might be viewed by others in this forum to be a "niche" - I need small, lightweight, PORTABLE, computer with GPS capabilities and which can calculate real-time data specific for flying gliders. Looks like a PalmPilot with this card might give a good, partial, answer to such needs. |A $50.00 laptop from someplace like EBAY and $100 for a GPS rcvr and |antenna could give you a realtime, moving display system using LINUX But the size and other attributes aren't acceptable, unless you have something in mind I'm not aware of. |I thought that was one of the goals of the list. I hope you are right. Cheers, --Amos --Amos Shapira | "Of course Australia was marked for 133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st. | glory, for its people had been chosen Jerusalem 93 805 | by the finest judges in England." ISRAEL amos@gezernet.co.il | -- Anonymous - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 12 21:57:24 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA24528 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:57:24 +0200 Received: from mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.42]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA24523 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:57:16 +0200 Received: from gwrlap.edaind.com ([12.67.206.241]) by mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990412195714.OHD6703@gwrlap.edaind.com> for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:57:14 +0000 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:03:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01BE84FE.0F6094E0.nz8r@worldnet.att.net> From: "Gregory W. Ratcliff" To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: RE: GPS Interface Software Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:07:36 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org The Delorme tripmate (don't know if its available outside the US), is an awesome little box for around $120.00 US. 12 channels, DB9 serial port. It sends NMEA after sending a startup string ASTRAL. Besides you get a very nice roadmap (US) set with it. More details on the commands are at http://oeonline.oeonline.com/~hdodgson/trip.html The sailing guys have been doing open moving map stuff for quite some time. Very good resolution raster scanned US aviation sectional maps are available from http://www.rmstek.com/ ($$$). I haven't seen an xwindows based moving map application, but I'd bet one exists. Regards to all, Greg Ratcliff nz8r on the air n1697x in the air - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 12 22:27:46 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id WAA31661 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:27:46 +0200 Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA30842 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:27:24 +0200 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10WnId-00048f-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:27:19 -0600 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10WnIc-0005G2-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:27:18 -0600 Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:27:18 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: <199904121910.VAA21129@nl.linux.org> from "Amos Shapira" at Apr 12, 99 10:10:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > > On Mon, April 12 1999, "D.F.S." wrote: > |> > |> | I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS > |> > |> Not sure how much this is relevant to this forum, so I think any > |> further discussion should be kept away from here, > |First off, I gess I must be mistaken as to the intent of the mailing list. > |I thought it was all about planes, computers and the linux OS. > |I think This is a perfect subject along those lines. > > OK, I just hope we don't annoy anyone. Just to clarify, my intent was not to be testy or sarcastic. If these subjects are against the intended charter or direction of the newsgroup just say so. I honestly presumed this was the intent of the list... yes/no? > > |A laptop or palmtop or motherboard built into a metal case and mounted > |under the seats in the plane running linux could do incredible > |things with the info the GPS can provide. > > Yes, sure. > > I suppose as a glider (aka sail-plane) pilot, especially with club > gliders (i.e. no private glider to stick my babies inside > permanently), and with power, space (not just volume, but take a > moment to remember how a glider pilot sits and try to find a place for > the display) and sometimes weight limits being an issue, I look at > quite the opposite extreme of the scale - lightweight, small, > self-sufficient (i.e. no or very limited external battery) and > hopefully lap-mountable box which can help me calculate from current > data (IAS, TAS (=> wind), height, vertical speed, glider data, average > thermal characteristics encountered so far and predicted by forecast > etc.) where can I hope to reach from my current position. I don't see that much of a difference between goals as part of the "Big Picture" They are 90% the same with minor differences. that should not be an issue as long as everyone understands it may take personal effort to get exactly what they want and this will not be an off-the-shelf solution. The aerodynamic formulas will be the same with a few variables, some of the goals may be different, some may not be that different. Granted, you may be more interested in range and perf. less the engine, and I may be more interested in calculation of range considering winds aloft and A/C characteristics at different altitudes. GOOD quality inteligent glide calculation could be VERY critical to me at times such as an emergency. IF we are inteligent and write portable code, hardware is not such an issue either. I may be able to get away with a larger and heavier laptop than you or someone else, but PC compatible laptops come in everything from AAA battery powered palmtops at 8 ounces all the way up to 450 Mhz Kilowatt sucking monsters that will tax that 60 amp alternator on your plane. I also want to track performance and route info and archive it. imagine how much better you could plan once you have a large database of info on exactly how your plane behaves including all the variables we add as pilots. > My point is that I'm in what might be viewed by others in this forum > to be a "niche" - I need small, lightweight, PORTABLE, computer with > GPS capabilities and which can calculate real-time data specific for > flying gliders. Looks like a PalmPilot with this card might give a > good, partial, answer to such needs. > Like I said, good portable software could be ported to the palm-pilot. > |A $50.00 laptop from someplace like EBAY and $100 for a GPS rcvr and > |antenna could give you a realtime, moving display system using LINUX > > But the size and other attributes aren't acceptable, unless you have > something in mind I'm not aware of. Granted, they are not $50.00 anymore, but there are lap/palmtop computers in the under a pound range. Another solution could be one of the 4 line/20 char LCD displays. they are fairly easy to drive, stuff the laptop out of the way someplace and make your dedicated application run the display. They are tiny and cheap, as in under $10.00. stick one in a handy location on the panel with double sided tape. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Apr 12 22:56:41 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id WAA01016 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:56:41 +0200 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00897 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:56:32 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom17.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id NAA02301 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:56:18 -0700 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software Message-ID: <19990412135617.A695@netcom17.netcom.com> References: <199904121910.VAA21129@nl.linux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199904121910.VAA21129@nl.linux.org>; from Amos Shapira on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:10:34PM +0400 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Mon Apr 12 13:48:51 PDT 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:10:34PM +0400, Amos Shapira wrote: > On Mon, April 12 1999, "D.F.S." wrote: > |> > |> | I've noticed one topic that hasn't come up on the list yet; GPS > |> > |> Not sure how much this is relevant to this forum, so I think any > |> further discussion should be kept away from here, > |First off, I gess I must be mistaken as to the intent of the mailing list. > |I thought it was all about planes, computers and the linux OS. > |I think This is a perfect subject along those lines. > > OK, I just hope we don't annoy anyone. Please, please do post!!! > I suppose as a glider (aka sail-plane) pilot, especially with club > gliders (i.e. no private glider to stick my babies inside > permanently), and with power, space (not just volume, but take a > moment to remember how a glider pilot sits and try to find a place for > the display) and sometimes weight limits being an issue, I look at > quite the opposite extreme of the scale - lightweight, small, > self-sufficient (i.e. no or very limited external battery) and > hopefully lap-mountable box which can help me calculate from current > data (IAS, TAS (=> wind), height, vertical speed, glider data, average > thermal characteristics encountered so far and predicted by forecast > etc.) where can I hope to reach from my current position. > [...] > > My point is that I'm in what might be viewed by others in this forum > to be a "niche" - I need small, lightweight, PORTABLE, computer with > GPS capabilities and which can calculate real-time data specific for > flying gliders. Looks like a PalmPilot with this card might give a > good, partial, answer to such needs. > > |A $50.00 laptop from someplace like EBAY and $100 for a GPS rcvr and > |antenna could give you a realtime, moving display system using LINUX > > But the size and other attributes aren't acceptable, unless you have > something in mind I'm not aware of. > I agree, laptop computers are just out of the question for use in gliders. You can't find room for them in most cockpits, and if you could, it still needs to be strapped down (one decent bump and you're looking at a smashed laptop, maybe a smashed canopy at $2K a pop, and maybe even a smashed head :^). From someone who "flys both ends of the rope", I also have somewhat mixed feelings of the value of in-flight usage of laptop computers in "roomy" power planes. The ergonomics of laptops leave something to be desired when compared to dedicated units (ala' GPS). Custom user interfaces with just a few buttons and menus are just plain easier to use. The same comment applies to the "distractions" created by the operating system itself (starting the application, etc). This is also an issue under Palm OS as well. So what is the answer? I don't claim to know, but I think it's worth keeping an eye on the uClinux project. I bought a Palm III a few months ago, with the idea of buying the TRG memory board and running uClinux on it. I've since learned that the uClinux gang is working on a small, mostly self contained card that has a Motorola DragonBall EZ processor (same integrated CPU as the Palm III) right on it! They claim the price will be $150 or so. For more info, see http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/simm/ This opens up the possibility of building a low cost, high quality, dedicated unit that could be programmed accordingly depending on the target application (power vs. soaring). I would have to agree with those who say uClinux has a way to go yet. However, I have also looked into developing under Palm OS, and it looks rather painful to me! By the way, the uClinux kernel runs fine under the latest Xcopilot emulator. Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Installing Micro$oft Windows on a PC is -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | like putting wagon wheels on a Porsche! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Apr 13 18:34:44 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id SAA01677 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:34:44 +0200 Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01674 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:34:34 +0200 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10X68X-0004Eu-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:34:09 -0600 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10X68X-0006Kd-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:34:09 -0600 Subject: Re: GPS Interface Software To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:34:08 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: <19990412135617.A695@netcom17.netcom.com> from "John Peterson" at Apr 12, 99 01:56:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > > |A $50.00 laptop from someplace like EBAY and $100 for a GPS rcvr and > > |antenna could give you a realtime, moving display system using LINUX > > > > But the size and other attributes aren't acceptable, unless you have > > something in mind I'm not aware of. > > > > I agree, laptop computers are just out of the question for use > in gliders. You can't find room for them in most cockpits, and > if you could, it still needs to be strapped down (one decent bump and > you're looking at a smashed laptop, maybe a smashed canopy at $2K a > pop, and maybe even a smashed head :^). > > From someone who "flys both ends of the rope", I also have somewhat > mixed feelings of the value of in-flight usage of laptop computers in > "roomy" power planes. The ergonomics of laptops leave something to be > desired when compared to dedicated units (ala' GPS). Custom user > interfaces with just a few buttons and menus are just plain easier to > use. The same comment applies to the "distractions" created by the > operating system itself (starting the application, etc). This is also > an issue under Palm OS as well. I'm the one mentioning laptops. I would have to agree running a laptop as such is a pain, I have tried it. What I WILL say though is that you will not find a better supported and common platform for a standard development project. There are tons of free and cheap tools and everyone can easily set up a system from local sources. The advantage to a dedicated system is it could easily be configured to boot and run a given set of applications. No need to start applications, turn the power on and that is it. As to the interface, that is why I mentioned LCD displays. They are dirt cheap and could easily be driven from a parallel port, you could also read buttons or a joystick the same way. Your interface in on the panel and have a definite and simple interface, the brains are a standard intel PC stuffed out of the way someplace. As an aside I think the fully embedded approach is best, build a low power device with a CPU and the software in flash memory. The problem with that is narrowing the scope and ability of many people not going to be able to match up to fabrication of such devices. Building Serial or parallel interfaced devices should be. One Item I have, that would be good, if they were not sold out is and LCD based terminal. Timeline Inc. had them for $39.00 if I recall. They are about the size of a knee type clip board. All I need to do is set up a termcap entry for linux and I'm set. This is not the cheap display, it is a higher end solution, but for example... 240 x 64 LCD with built-in controller $59.00 or 2 for $109.00 Mfr: AND 4021ST-EO Unit is EL back-lit The built-in controller allows you to do text and graphics $49.00 or 2 for $89.00 Mfr: OPTREX DMF5005 Non back-lit 20 characters x 8 lines 7 1/4 L x 2.5 H The built-in controller allows you to do text and graphics BG Micro has a 20 char X 4 Line Display for $5.95. > So what is the answer? I don't claim to know, but I think it's > worth keeping an eye on the uClinux project. I bought a Palm III a few > months ago, with the idea of buying the TRG memory board and running > uClinux on it. I've since learned that the uClinux gang is working on > a small, mostly self contained card that has a Motorola DragonBall EZ > processor (same integrated CPU as the Palm III) right on it! They > claim the price will be $150 or so. For more info, see > > http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/simm/ > > This opens up the possibility of building a low cost, high quality, > dedicated unit that could be programmed accordingly depending on the > target application (power vs. soaring). I would have to agree with > those who say uClinux has a way to go yet. However, I have also looked > into developing under Palm OS, and it looks rather painful to me! By > the way, the uClinux kernel runs fine under the latest Xcopilot > emulator. I would agree, the hardware they are developing would be great for people interested in building them. I guess my point is as long as we design and develop open and portable software it can easily port to whatever hardware best fits a persons situation. Like I said, my final goal would be an embedded system. My CPU of choice would be one of the motrolla 68K family parts. BUT keeping it open will allow more people to use whatever we develop and will allow much quicker prototyping. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to .