From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 11 15:15:10 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA27412 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:15:10 +0100 Received: from max.phys.uu.nl (max.phys.uu.nl [131.211.32.73]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA27311 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:56 +0100 Received: from mirkwood.dummy.home (root@anx1p3.phys.uu.nl [131.211.33.92]) by max.phys.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/hjm) with ESMTP id PAA16566 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:55 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by mirkwood.dummy.home (8.9.0/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA28854 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:07 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: mirkwood.dummy.home: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 15:14:07 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: my fault Message-ID: X-Search-Engine-Bait: http://humbolt.nl.linux.org/ X-My-Own-Server: http://www.nl.linux.org/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi folks, John may be your list owner, but that doesn't mean that I don't have any way to foul up things... And so I did. I made a typo when creating the list, adding a wrong address as list owner and approval address. Ooops! I hope I haven't impeded your effort in taking Linux to new heights (I understood your list was about something like that...). cheers, Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control over your own data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 11 22:42:26 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA01203 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:42:26 +0100 Received: from max.phys.uu.nl (max.phys.uu.nl [131.211.32.73]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA01122 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:42:18 +0100 Received: from mirkwood.dummy.home (root@anx1p4.phys.uu.nl [131.211.33.93]) by max.phys.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/hjm) with ESMTP id WAA00451 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:42:18 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by mirkwood.dummy.home (8.9.0/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA05069 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:40:00 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: mirkwood.dummy.home: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:40:00 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: new heights Message-ID: X-Search-Engine-Bait: http://humbolt.nl.linux.org/ X-My-Own-Server: http://www.nl.linux.org/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, being root on the machine that's hosting this list, I have gathered statistics and found that this list already contains 31 members. I'd say it's time to kick off the discussion and take Linux to new heights. The sky's the limit... success, Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control over your own data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 11 23:16:31 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA10740 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:16:31 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn89.southwind.net [206.53.97.109]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA10696 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:16:21 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA13488 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:15:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:15:19 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Linux Avaiation Subject: Chart Data Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, I was wondering if anybody had the chart data found on sectionals? I know the federal goverment releases this data electronicly, but if I remember right, it was a bit expensive and at the time I looked, only came on a 9 track tape... Anybody know where I might find some sample data? -= bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 11 23:54:58 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA28239 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:54:58 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA28235 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:54:49 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA16263 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:54:49 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA05782; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:54:49 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14056.18872.867815.458481@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:54:48 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Chart Data In-Reply-To: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> References: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep writes: > I was wondering if anybody had the chart data found on sectionals? > > I know the federal goverment releases this data electronicly, but if I > remember right, it was a bit expensive and at the time I looked, only > came on a 9 track tape... > > Anybody know where I might find some sample data? Bob, Exactly what sort of data are you interested in? Airport/runway dimensions, location, and lighting info??? Navaid location and frequency? That sort of stuff? If so, have a look at: ftp://ftp.x-plane.com/pub/nav_apt_fix/NewFormat.zip This contains a bunch of this sort of info. It's pretty complete for the USA. The guy who is maintianing this data base (Robin Peel) is also working on filling in data for other countries as well. What I'm still trying to find is a data base of aerial obstacles like radio towers, smoke stacks, skyscrapers, etc. Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 00:05:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA08629 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:05:12 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA08535 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:04:59 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16587 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:04:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA05796; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:04:58 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14056.19482.238400.970536@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:04:58 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: new heights In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Rik van Riel writes: > being root on the machine that's hosting this list, I > have gathered statistics and found that this list already > contains 31 members. > > I'd say it's time to kick off the discussion and take > Linux to new heights. The sky's the limit... I'll jump in here and introduce myself. My name is Curt Olson. I work at the University of Minnesota in the mechanical engineering department as a Unix sys admin. In my spare time I am heavily involved in the Flight Gear project: www.flightgear.org We are trying to build a modern, open source, general aviation flight simulator that runs on Linux and other platforms. I noticed that several of the people subscribed to this list are also subscribed to the flight gear mailing lists (hi guys). The charter for this list mentions (among others): o Digital Charts and Cartography I've been hard at work revamping the flight gear scenery system. I'm working on incorporating 2d gis data (lakes, rivers, urban areas, etc.) with 3d elevation data (DEM). It's been slow going and there are a lot of issues to deal with, but I'm hoping to have something worth seeing in a month or two. o GPS Interface Software Flight Gear can pretend to be a GPS and send telemetry data (NMEA and Garman format) out the serial port. This way you can hook up to some moving map software and keep track of your flights. o Flight Control Systems I've done a real basic hack job on the flight gear autopilot. Jeff Goeke-Smith did the heading hold last year, and I have since added altitude hold, terrain following, and auto throttle. o Flight Simulators Well that's one of my big interests ... :-) You are all welcome to check out the flight gear project. I'm always happy to answer questions. Looking forward to some interesting discussions here. Best Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 00:13:17 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA17621 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:13:17 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn20.southwind.net [206.53.97.40]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA17618 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:13:08 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA20626 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:12:48 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:12:07 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Chart Data References: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> <14056.18872.867815.458481@kenai.me.umn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org "Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > Bob, > > Exactly what sort of data are you interested in? Airport/runway > dimensions, location, and lighting info??? Navaid location and > frequency? That sort of stuff? I found this data for a lot of airports online... I was loking for the data the NOAA Uses to generate their Sectional maps which would include navaids, landmarks, radio frequencies and such... The purpose was to generate sectionals on the fly from this data to achive a moving map display with various bells and wistles... (Like being able to hook up a GPS and plot flight path and planned course information... Hit a button and get local radio frequencies, closest airport etc...) -= bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 02:37:52 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA26710 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:37:52 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA26707 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:37:44 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA20296 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:37:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA10386; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:37:43 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14056.28647.240328.94469@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 19:37:43 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Chart Data In-Reply-To: <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> References: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> <14056.18872.867815.458481@kenai.me.umn.edu> <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep writes: > I found this data for a lot of airports online... > > I was loking for the data the NOAA Uses to generate their Sectional maps > which would include navaids, landmarks, radio frequencies and > such... The url I listed earlier includes vor and ndb type navaids. That should help get you part of the way. If you find data for landmarks, radio towers, building, and that sort of stuff let me know. I'd like to be able to incorporate these things into the flight gear simulator. > The purpose was to generate sectionals on the fly from this data to > achive a moving map display with various bells and wistles... (Like > being able to hook up a GPS and plot flight path and planned course > information... Hit a button and get local radio frequencies, closest > airport etc...) That sounds like a handy tool. Flight Gear can already output the GPS data via a serial port. This might be useful in the code development / debugging phase so you don't have to haul your computer and development environment around. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 02:59:56 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA27468 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:59:56 +0100 Received: from ns1.lr.net (ns1.lr.net [205.219.188.10]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA27302 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 02:59:47 +0100 Received: from plym1-8.worldpath.net ([206.152.188.78]) by ns1.lr.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA11876 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:59:46 -0400 Date: 11 Mar 99 18:27:03 -0500 From: ashw@lr.net (Ash R. J. Wyllie) Subject: Re: new heights To: "Rik van Riel" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <531.739T190T11071754@lr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Excerpted from the mind of Rik van Riel; >Hi, >being root on the machine that's hosting this list, I >have gathered statistics and found that this list already >contains 31 members. >I'd say it's time to kick off the discussion and take >Linux to new heights. The sky's the limit... Right now I don't have a Linux machine. I might get one in the near future though. So I'm more interested in lurking and seeing what might be produced for Linux. -ash (Paging Peter LaNague) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 07:47:43 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA16524 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:47:43 +0100 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA16521 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:47:35 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id WAA03740 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:47:34 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903120647.WAA03740@netcom13.netcom.com> Subject: Re: new heights To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:47:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <531.739T190T11071754@lr.net> from "Ash R. J. Wyllie" at Mar 11, 99 06:27:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Ash R. J. Wyllie writes: > >Excerpted from the mind of Rik van Riel; > > >>Hi, > >>being root on the machine that's hosting this list, I >>have gathered statistics and found that this list already >>contains 31 members. > >>I'd say it's time to kick off the discussion and take >>Linux to new heights. The sky's the limit... > >Right now I don't have a Linux machine. I might get one in the near future >though. > >So I'm more interested in lurking and seeing what might be produced for Linux. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ There are already a number of existing aviation related applications that were designed specifically for, or run under Linux. You can get a description of them in the "info" file for this mailing list. Send a message with "info linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to Majordomo@mail.nl.linux.org Of course, I don't want to discourage those who think further improvements are needed. Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | How many times would you like to -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | reboot Microsoft Windows today? o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 07:56:45 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA26262 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:56:45 +0100 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA26092 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:56:36 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id WAA06446 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:56:35 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903120656.WAA06446@netcom13.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Chart Data To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:56:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> from "Bob Deep" at Mar 11, 99 11:12:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep writes: > >"Curtis L. Olson" wrote: >> Bob, >> >> Exactly what sort of data are you interested in? Airport/runway >> dimensions, location, and lighting info??? Navaid location and >> frequency? That sort of stuff? > >I found this data for a lot of airports online... > >I was loking for the data the NOAA Uses to generate their Sectional maps >which would include navaids, landmarks, radio frequencies and such... > >The purpose was to generate sectionals on the fly from this data to >achive a moving map display with various bells and wistles... (Like >being able to hook up a GPS and plot flight path and planned course >information... Hit a button and get local radio frequencies, closest >airport etc...) > Bob, I've been wondering the same thing myself. The NOAA Office of Aeronautical Charting and Cartography web site aludes to the fact that they are working on this, but doesn't really go into detail. See http://acc.nos.noaa.gov/ Go to the frequently asked questions link for the summary of what digital products they have available. Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | How many times would you like to -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | reboot Microsoft Windows today? o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 21:26:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA06883 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:26:12 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn96.southwind.net [206.53.97.116]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA06796 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:25:58 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA03920 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:25:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E97818.F1C3F549@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:24:56 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Chart Data References: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> <14056.18872.867815.458481@kenai.me.umn.edu> <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> <14056.28647.240328.94469@kenai.me.umn.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org "Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > > Bob Deep writes: > > I found this data for a lot of airports online... > > > > I was loking for the data the NOAA Uses to generate their Sectional maps > > which would include navaids, landmarks, radio frequencies and > > such... > > The url I listed earlier includes vor and ndb type navaids. That > should help get you part of the way. If you find data for landmarks, > radio towers, building, and that sort of stuff let me know. I'd like > to be able to incorporate these things into the flight gear simulator. > > > The purpose was to generate sectionals on the fly from this data to > > achive a moving map display with various bells and wistles... (Like > > being able to hook up a GPS and plot flight path and planned course > > information... Hit a button and get local radio frequencies, closest > > airport etc...) > > That sounds like a handy tool. Flight Gear can already output the GPS > data via a serial port. This might be useful in the code development > / debugging phase so you don't have to haul your computer and > development environment around. :-) Yea that was the idea actually... I was planning to use flight gear as the driver and validation enviroment before I actually went up and got lost in an airplane... I figured, that if I could get the program smoth enough, you could incorparate it into flight gear as an add on too... Perhaps it would be easier to do the IFR end of things first? The charts are much simpler as they avoid all the landscape and visual landmarks you find on a sectional. I know the data exists somewhere as Jepson markets a product that is a moving map display.. (I think that is what I saw on their web site anyway..) I also figure that for the US, this data must somehow be obtained from the FAA or at least coordinated by them and thus should be available at a reasonable cost.... By now it has to be in electronic form of some kind... Well don't you think? Oh.. And about flight gear... What's the status of nav aids and their displays? I see a lot of effort going into rendering the landscape but I don't see much on this front... Blows M$ Flight away by a long shot though... I might be interasted in helping out on that front.... Starting with VOR's and NDB's, then moving on to DME, localizers, glideslopes and markers.. If I get real good, we could add HSI's, monitor audio and stuff like that... As soon as I get my linux box back to a stable condition after my recient hardware upgrade, I plan to build a copy of flight gear and give it a try. Right now, the hardware is not stable and the RMA process is taking way too long... Happy landings... -= bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 12 22:31:31 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA22441 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:31:31 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA22438 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:31:23 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA17005 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:31:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA05496; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:31:19 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14057.34727.278498.178520@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:31:19 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Chart Data In-Reply-To: <36E97818.F1C3F549@cssgroup.com> References: <36E84077.60CC06D5@cssgroup.com> <14056.18872.867815.458481@kenai.me.umn.edu> <36E84DC7.96F50609@cssgroup.com> <14056.28647.240328.94469@kenai.me.umn.edu> <36E97818.F1C3F549@cssgroup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep writes: > Yea that was the idea actually... I was planning to use flight gear > as the driver and validation enviroment before I actually went up > and got lost in an airplane... I figured, that if I could get the > program smoth enough, you could incorparate it into flight gear as > an add on too... Bob, Yes, if it ran under Unix, you wouldn't even really have to incorporate it into FGFS directly. It could just run as a separate process in a separate window ... maybe hack in some simple socket communication since serial communication doesn't make much sense if the two processes are running on the same machine. > Perhaps it would be easier to do the IFR end of things first? The > charts are much simpler as they avoid all the landscape and visual > landmarks you find on a sectional. You could draw what you have data for, and build on that as your find additional data sources ... > I know the data exists somewhere as Jepson markets a product that is > a moving map display.. (I think that is what I saw on their web site > anyway..) Yes, I've seen the jeppeson software running and have even tested flightgear with it. It's pretty slick, although sometimes I wonder how they managed to make it so slow, innefficient, and buggy ... but then I remember that it runs under windows and I am less surprised ... ;-) I think jeppeson collects and markets their own data so it wouldn't surprise me that they would have a software product that incorporates their own proprietary data. > I also figure that for the US, this data must somehow be obtained > from the FAA or at least coordinated by them and thus should be > available at a reasonable cost.... By now it has to be in > electronic form of some kind... Well don't you think? I think I've seen airport data on some FAA site someplace. I was pointing out some errors in Robin Peel's airport data base and he said, "yup, straight from the FAA data" so I guess just because you get the data from the FAA doesn't mean it will be without error. > Oh.. And about flight gear... What's the status of nav aids and > their displays? Currently nada, zilch. I have a pretty complete database of worldwide nav aid data, but I haven't made any attempt to read this into some efficient internal data structure, nor has anyone worked on modeling the various nav instruments. > I see a lot of effort going into rendering the landscape but I don't > see much on this front... Yes, currently I am plowing away on overhauling the scenery. > Blows M$ Flight away by a long shot though... In a few respects yes, but they have a fairly complete sim, and we don't ... yet ... :-) > I might be interasted in helping out on that front.... Starting > with VOR's and NDB's, then moving on to DME, localizers, glideslopes > and markers.. If I get real good, we could add HSI's, monitor audio > and stuff like that... That's definitely a current area of need. If it might be something you are interested in working on, feel free to email me personally and I can help you get up to speed with the source code. We can hash out the interface with the rest of the sim, directory structure, makefiles, and things like that. > As soon as I get my linux box back to a stable condition after my > recient hardware upgrade, I plan to build a copy of flight gear and > give it a try. Right now, the hardware is not stable and the RMA > process is taking way too long... Good luck. Flaky hardware is among life's most annoying things (along with the vending machine being out of pop tarts and my dog peeing on my bed.) Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 09:10:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA21663 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:10:12 +0100 Received: from netcom4.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom4.netcom.com [192.100.81.107]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21586 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:09:58 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom4.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id AAA20670 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:09:57 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> Subject: Linux on Hand Held Computers? To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:09:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <14057.34727.278498.178520@kenai.me.umn.edu> from "Curtis L. Olson" at Mar 12, 99 03:31:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org The list appears to have "taken off" (pun intended). I just checked and there are now 56 subscribers to linux-aviation from all over the world: Australia, Canada, Europe and the US. Welcome to everyone, please feel free to post questions and ideas! Let me throw out a topic of personal interest for discussion, namely "What will the future hold for Linux and Hand Held Aviation related computing???" I'm most interested in the smaller devices that will fit in a shirt pocket, can easily be mounted on the yoke, panel or perhaps a small "knee board", and has reasonable battery life. Here's some things to reflect on; 1) What are the most promising platforms for Hand Held Aviation Computing??? The 3Com Palm devices are obvious candidates: there is already a good interface between Linux and PalmOS, small size, good battery life, large existing user base, etc. 2) What is the long term prospect of running Linux itself on such devices??? I know there is a already a project that is taking on the task of porting Linux to small memory environments. Check out the uCLinux web web site at; http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/ (Main, US Site) http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/~riel/uClinux/ (Mirror, Europe) 3) What would be the major advantage of running Linux itself on these devices, or is it better to just stick with the native environments (e.g. PalmOS)??? What about developing code in Java? For example, see http://www.hewgill.com/pilot/jump/index.html (Jump) http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mcdirmid/ghost/ (Ghost) http://www.wabasoft.com/overview.html (Waba) 4) Potential applications??? Here's a few: o Weight and Balance o E6B "like" calculations (Density Altitude, etc). o Moving Map for use with GPS o Speed to Fly (for gliders) Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | The box said; "requires Windows NT -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | 4.0 or better", so I installed Linux. o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 14:32:49 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA02713 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:32:49 +0100 Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7-old.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.99]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02709 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:32:39 +0100 Received: from MAIN (slper12p58.ozemail.com.au [203.108.227.250]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA29601 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:32:35 +1100 (EST) Received: by MAIN with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6F2A.E96D0C20@MAIN>; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:29:30 +0800 Message-ID: <01BE6F2A.E96D0C20@MAIN> From: P & I Schubert To: "Linux-Aviation (E-mail)" Subject: Engine Performance Curves/Equations/Sounds Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:29:23 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by humbolt.nl.linux.org id OAA02710 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hello everyone. this is my first post to this list. A brief introduction: I am a IT Manager for a the State government railroad in Perth Western Australia. I recently have been attracted to Linux as an alternative other operating systems that are getting increasingly greedy. As a result I have been interested in a GNU Licensed Flight Simulator that really models aircraft correctly and have just recently commenced contributing the FG project doing work on accurate engine models. I am not new to Freeware concept having released a comprehensive donationware scenery package for Flight Simulator 98 covering the complete state of Western Australia (about 1/3 the size of the continental US). There have been about 11,000 downloads of this scenery for he various site world wide. It is available from http://ozpack.pcsa.net.au/AWA.html Screen shots of my next release can be seen at: http://www.perthpcug.org.au/~ozpack/ I have 4,500 hours command time as a commuter airline pilot in the late 70's early 80's before taking up computing as a profession. Anyway, I am chasing engine performance curves for a variety of engines. So far I have good data on Continental IO-520's, some on a PT6A-27, but looking for data on Lycoming engines, as well as Biz Jet engines. Aircraft operating Handbooks are a good source, as I can plot points on the graphs and then do regression analysis on these. Also looking for sound recordings of starting , idling, runnups, take off, and shutdown power settings to build into these models. Any format acceptable. These recordings would need to be in good quality mono, and preferably stereo. These are particularly important for the PT6 engine. Anyone handy to an airport? Thanks in advance Phil Schubert Perth Western Australia e-mail: philings@ozemail.com.au Home Page: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~philings/index.htm - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 14:50:44 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA17850 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:50:44 +0100 Received: from ns1.lr.net (ns1.lr.net [205.219.188.10]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA17754 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:50:35 +0100 Received: from plym1-4.worldpath.net ([206.152.188.74]) by ns1.lr.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA18263 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:50:30 -0400 Date: 15 Mar 99 08:34:33 -0500 From: ashw@lr.net (Ash R. J. Wyllie) Subject: Re: Linux on Hand Held Computers? To: "John C. Peterson" In-Reply-To: <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> Message-ID: <2185.743T1672T5143708@lr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Excerpted from the mind of John C. Peterson; > The list appears to have "taken off" (pun intended). I just >checked and there are now 56 subscribers to linux-aviation from >all over the world: Australia, Canada, Europe and the US. Welcome to >everyone, please feel free to post questions and ideas! > Let me throw out a topic of personal interest for discussion, namely >"What will the future hold for Linux and Hand Held Aviation related >computing???" I'm most interested in the smaller devices that will fit >in a shirt pocket, can easily be mounted on the yoke, panel or perhaps >a small "knee board", and has reasonable battery life. Here's some >things to reflect on; > 1) What are the most promising platforms for Hand Held Aviation > Computing??? The 3Com Palm devices are obvious candidates: there > is already a good interface between Linux and PalmOS, small size, > good battery life, large existing user base, etc. > 2) What is the long term prospect of running Linux itself on such > devices??? I know there is a already a project that is taking on > the task of porting Linux to small memory environments. Check out > the uCLinux web web site at; > http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/ (Main, US Site) > http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/~riel/uClinux/ (Mirror, Europe) > 3) What would be the major advantage of running Linux itself on these > devices, or is it better to just stick with the native environments > (e.g. PalmOS)??? What about developing code in Java? For example, > see > http://www.hewgill.com/pilot/jump/index.html (Jump) > http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mcdirmid/ghost/ (Ghost) > http://www.wabasoft.com/overview.html (Waba) > 4) Potential applications??? Here's a few: > o Weight and Balance > o E6B "like" calculations (Density Altitude, etc). > o Moving Map for use with GPS > o Speed to Fly (for gliders) I can add a few here. If it is possible to extract heading from a HSI (and to sneak in a digital ASI) winds aloft can be calculated. As well as IFR position reports. -ash (Paging Peter LaNague) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 14:57:24 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA23830 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:57:24 +0100 Received: from tga (ppp16-a.tyco.net.au [203.20.238.145]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA23825 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:57:13 +0100 Received: from tyco.net.au (tga [127.0.0.1]) by tga (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA09565 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:57:07 +0800 Message-ID: <36ED11B2.ECE39133@tyco.net.au> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:57:07 +0800 From: Tom Atkinson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.29 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Engine Performance Curves/Equations/Sounds References: <01BE6F2A.E96D0C20@MAIN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi Phil! My name is Tom Atkinson. I am IT man for the Kevron Group which is based here in Perth, Western Australia. My company does aerial surveys and is based at Jandakot. I work at the East Perth office (which is becoming more and more Linux-ified every day!). I also am pilot for them (1500 hrs total). Their fleet is: 2 x C404 (Titan, Cont IO-520) 1 x C441 (Conquest, Garrett TPE331) 1 x B60 (Duke, Lycoming IO-541) 4 x AC500S (Shrike, Lycoming IO-520) 1 x TU206G 1 x C185 1 x PAC Cresco (PT6 engine) I think I can help you out by getting hold of material such as POH. Sound recordings should also be possible, if you can supply the equipment. I fly the Duke and C404. I probably could arrange for recordings inside the C441 and Cresco. The "Cresco", by the way, is the modern variant of the Fletcher agricultural aircraft. I can't remember which mark of PT6 it has. P & I Schubert wrote: > I recently have been attracted to Linux as an alternative other operating systems that are getting increasingly greedy. As a result I have been interested in a GNU Licensed Flight Simulator that really models aircraft correctly and have just recently commenced contributing the FG project doing work on accurate engine models. > > Anyway, I am chasing engine performance curves for a variety of engines. So far I have good data on Continental IO-520's, some on a PT6A-27, but looking for data on Lycoming engines, as well as Biz Jet engines. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 19:41:09 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA27853 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:41:09 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA27672 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:40:55 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15448 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:39:42 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903151939.LAA15448@tr2.com> Subject: Introduction To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:39:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Mar 15, 99 00:09:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hello, I'd like to introduce myself. Name is Jerry Kaidor. I've been Linux-ing for 7 or 8 years ( started with kernel version 0.95 ) and flying for three. I make money for toys by doing embedded network programming, and my main toy lives down at San Carlos Airport: a 1953 Cessna 170 taildragger called "The Silver Turtle". When I was learning to fly, I wrote a lot; that mass of writing resides at my web site, www.tr2.com. I host a couple of mailing lists - cessna-140@lists.best.com, and cessna-170@lists.best.com. The subjects are self evident :-). I have no specific applications or plans for Linux in the cockpit at this time, but am open to new ideas. I believe that Linux _can_ be made robust enough for cockpit duty, whereas Windows can NOT. Windows does have its place, but do you really want to depend on every single DLL, modified by every single vendor, when bouncing around in the clouds? Ugh. One thing I think a Linux system can be very good for, is flight planning. Now that DUATS is accessable via telnet, I'm imagining a system where I say "I'd like to fly the Turtle to Pismo Beach this afternoon", and a full set of documents is printed, including charts, flight log, etc, etc, and a flight plan filed with FSS. With a minimum of human intervention. And with enough artificial intelligence to say "whups, jerry, are you sure you want to do that? There's icing at 5000....", and taking into account the particular capabilities and limitations of my airplane ( "Xwind component is forcast to be 10knots gusting to 15, didn't you almost groundloop the airplane last time that happened?" :-) ). I know flight planning isn't as sexy as the in-cockpit stuff, but it can be an awful lot of work. To do it right, that is. And the plug-together-tinkertoy nature of Unix could potentially make it more doable than in Windows. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 15 20:42:50 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA18611 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:42:50 +0100 Received: from truth.softcafe.net (root@[153.105.252.98]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18589 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:42:40 +0100 Received: from surfer (254.los-angeles-63-64rs.ca.dial-access.att.net [12.72.81.254]) by truth.softcafe.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA28783 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:53:52 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990315114517.2fcf3be8@softcafe.net> X-Sender: dcg@softcafe.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:45:17 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Digital ChoreoGraphics Subject: Online Linux S/W In-Reply-To: <199903151939.LAA15448@tr2.com> References: <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hello - Let me introduce myself and my interests. My name is Don Black. I am a professional Systems Analyst and Software Eningeer, and a Private Pilot. I am interested in gaining access to Linux Flight Planning Software that I can use online over the internet. I wish to install it on my Linux Web Server, and be able to use it via Netscape. My intent is to provide access to the software via my Web Server, not to develop tha application. I do, however, have some considerable expertise in 'C', JavaScript, HTML and CGI/Perl, and could participate in the technical end in some small way. For a sampling of my qualifications, you may examine my website at "http://www.dcgfx.com". Let me also invite you to check out a great aviation site for anyone flying in California - "http://www.pilotage.com". Pilotge has a list of aviation shareware downloadable from NASA at: "http://www.pilotage.com/software". Anybody with available shareware or demoware, who wants to list it with PilotAge's NASA database can try "http://www.pilotage.com/forms". Thanx - Don Black dcg@softcafe.net - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 15:10:59 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA16145 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:10:59 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16139 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:10:49 +0100 Received: from blackbird.wt.net (216-119-135-131.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.131]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA06118 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:11:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <015b01be6fb5$c50ed580$3d8777d8@wt.net> From: "Keith Brown" To: Subject: Introduction and possible thread Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:03:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0158_01BE6F83.74B265C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01BE6F83.74B265C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone! So far, I've seen introductions from Don and Jerry. I'm from the other = side of the fence, having more experience in aviation then computers or = specifically Linux, at least professionally. I've been involved in = flying one way or another since I was about 10 years old. I spent 9-1/2 = years in the U.S. Air Force, 6-1/2 as enlisted aircrew on C-130 aircraft = (2000 hrs) and 3 as an air traffic controller. I've been a controller = now with the FAA at Houston Center since 1991. I hold a BA in = Professional Aeronautics from Embry-Riddle and an AAS in Airway Sciences = from The Community College of the Air Force. I am a private pilot, but I = haven't been current for a number of years since raising a family has = kinda put that on the back burner for a while. I've been programming in C/C++ as a hobby for about 10 years. I don't = have anything concrete to show for it except maybe a small part of the = KDE project. I wrote the original tree widget that was used in KFM and = some other apps. I've been using Linux since Slackware 1.something. If = you notice I'm writing this from Windows, its because I lost the hard = drive that was my /home partition in Linux (GRRRR!). I'm not very happy = with Quantum right now. Anyway, I normally use Linux for almost = everything. One thing I've always been interested in working on is flight planning = software. At one time, I worked out a lot of the algorithms and = interface design for such a project. I noticed both Don and Jerry = expressed similar interests. The thing that stopped me though was = exposure to liability. I never discussed it with an attourney or other = legal authority, it was just my concern for my financial welfare. As you all probably know, General Aviation was almost put out of = business because of product liability. I'm surprised there hasn't been a = problem with flight planning software. Either the industry has been = lucky, the products have been good enough to have never been perceived = as contributory to an accident, or maybe I'm wrong about the potential = for trouble. Of course, the scenario I envision is a bug in the software = or Joe Blow's incompetence in using it along with his incompetence at = flying causes "controlled flight into terrain" or something of that = nature. At least those few companies that control the market probably = have enough resources to try to defend themselves. I (we) don't, and no = matter how many disclaimers you present on your product, it doesn't = prevent someone from naming you in a lawsuit and forcing you to pay big = bucks to defend it in court. I don't really know what impact the concept = of freeware or open source would have on this. Perversely, it seems to = me that the more a product does for the pilot to keep him out of = trouble, the more exposed the creators are to lawsuits. I mean, if you = claim the ability to determine conflicts with minimum altitudes, special = use airspace, weather conditions, etc., that's just more ammunition to = be used against you when a pilot relies on it, perhaps mistakenly, and = it gets him dead. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Naturally, it'd be great is one of was = actually a lawyer and wanted to throw in his $.02 worth, on a = contingency basis, of course :-) ------=_NextPart_000_0158_01BE6F83.74B265C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone!
 
So far, I've seen introductions from Don and = Jerry. I'm=20 from the other side of the fence, having more experience in aviation = then=20 computers or specifically Linux, at least professionally. I've been = involved in=20 flying one way or another since I was about 10 years old. I spent 9-1/2 = years in=20 the U.S. Air Force, 6-1/2 as enlisted aircrew on C-130 aircraft (2000 = hrs) and 3=20 as an air traffic controller. I've been a controller now with the FAA at = Houston=20 Center since 1991. I hold a BA in Professional Aeronautics from = Embry-Riddle and=20 an AAS in Airway Sciences from The Community College of the Air Force. I = am a=20 private pilot, but I haven't been current for a number of years since = raising a=20 family has kinda put that on the back burner for a while.
 
I've been programming in C/C++ as a hobby for = about 10=20 years. I don't have anything concrete to show for it except maybe a = small part=20 of the KDE project. I wrote the original tree widget that was used in = KFM and=20 some other apps. I've been using Linux since Slackware 1.something. If = you=20 notice I'm writing this from Windows, its because I lost the hard drive = that was=20 my /home partition in Linux (GRRRR!). I'm not very happy with Quantum = right now.=20 Anyway, I normally use Linux for almost everything.
 
One thing I've always been interested in working = on is=20 flight planning software. At one time, I worked out a lot of the = algorithms and=20 interface design for such a project. I noticed both Don and Jerry = expressed=20 similar interests. The thing that stopped me though was exposure to = liability. I=20 never discussed it with an attourney or other legal authority, it was = just my=20 concern for my financial welfare.
 
As you all probably know, General Aviation was = almost put=20 out of business because of product liability. I'm surprised there hasn't = been a=20 problem with flight planning software. Either the industry has been = lucky, the=20 products have been good enough to have never been perceived as = contributory to=20 an accident, or maybe I'm wrong about the potential for trouble. Of = course, the=20 scenario I envision is a bug in the software or Joe Blow's incompetence = in using=20 it along with his incompetence at flying causes "controlled flight = into=20 terrain" or something of that nature. At least those few companies = that=20 control the market probably have enough resources to try to defend = themselves. I=20 (we) don't, and no matter how many disclaimers you present on your = product, it=20 doesn't prevent someone from naming you in a lawsuit and forcing you to = pay big=20 bucks to defend it in court. I don't really know what impact the concept = of=20 freeware or open source would have on this. Perversely, it seems to me = that the=20 more a product does for the pilot to keep him out of trouble, the more = exposed=20 the creators are to lawsuits. I mean, if you claim the ability to = determine=20 conflicts with minimum altitudes, special use airspace, weather = conditions,=20 etc., that's just more ammunition to be used against you when a pilot = relies on=20 it, perhaps mistakenly, and it gets him dead.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on this? Naturally, = it'd be great=20 is one of was actually a lawyer and wanted to throw in his $.02 worth, = on a=20 contingency basis, of course :-)
------=_NextPart_000_0158_01BE6F83.74B265C0-- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 15:40:36 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA19098 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:40:36 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn67.southwind.net [206.53.97.87]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA19053 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:40:22 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA09710 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:37:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EE6C5D.C24629D8@cssgroup.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:36:13 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread References: <015b01be6fb5$c50ed580$3d8777d8@wt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Keith Brown wrote: > > Hi everyone! > > I am a private > pilot, but I haven't been current for a number of years since raising > a family has kinda put that on the back burner for a while. I know how that goes.. Once I got married my flight time has been very limited... Don't know when I'd get any in anyway.. > I noticed both Don and Jerry > expressed similar interests. The thing that stopped me though was > exposure to liability. I never discussed it with an attourney or other > legal authority, it was just my concern for my financial welfare. Well... Hmmm.. Had not thought of that. > Anyone have any thoughts on this? Naturally, it'd be great is one of > was actually a lawyer and wanted to throw in his $.02 worth, on a > contingency basis, of course :-) My guess is that if you don't have anything, you are not likely to have a problem. The reason the Aircraft makers where driven out of the small aircraft market was not so much their making aircraft as their appearance of having deep pockets. Not may A&P's where named in civil actions and few would actually pay any losses because they generally don't have anything to give (even at $45 an hour...) Also... If you have a group of individuals who have no assets in common, who would you go after? I'm not in the leagal profession so you had better ask the attourney, but I don't think the I would have much to worry about.. They would not get much money out of me, so I doubt they would even try. -= bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 16:12:36 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA23417 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:12:36 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA23414 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:12:27 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02951 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:12:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14603; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:12:26 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14062.29914.252408.795548@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:12:26 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread In-Reply-To: <015b01be6fb5$c50ed580$3d8777d8@wt.net> References: <015b01be6fb5$c50ed580$3d8777d8@wt.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Keith Brown writes: > One thing I've always been interested in working on is flight > planning software. At one time, I worked out a lot of the algorithms > and interface design for such a project. I noticed both Don and > Jerry expressed similar interests. The thing that stopped me though > was exposure to liability. I never discussed it with an attourney or > other legal authority, it was just my concern for my financial > welfare. > > Anyone have any thoughts on this? Naturally, it'd be great is one of > was actually a lawyer and wanted to throw in his $.02 worth, on a > contingency basis, of course :-) I've played around a bit with the Jeppesen flight planning/moving map software. I managed to spot one hideous bug. As I was flying toward my destination airport, the software reported an ever increasing distance and ETA. But, it did report the correct heading. I've only seen this happen once. I've also seen it hang/crash on numerous occasions. This is with win95 so neither problem may directly be the fault of Jeppeson ... who knows. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't have my pilots license (the above experience was with a simulator) so I can't answer your liability questions. But that doesn't stop me from making wild speculations. :-) I would guess that 99.999% of pilots would have enough sense not to trust their lives completely in a win95 based product ... or for that matter depend on any one single point of failure. I would also guess that most people having run MS operating systems and software are used to frequent bugs and crashes and have the appropriate distrust of any software and the common sense to cross check with all the other information available. I think that having all the appropriate disclaimers clearly posted would definitely be required and helpful for disuading people from naming you in a lawsuit. Taking a step back it seems really silly that a person would have to hesitate to contribute something useful to society because of the threat of being sued by someone who foolishly mis-used it. But I guess that is life, at least here in the USA ... Maybe what you need to do is get a fake hotmail address and do all your development with an anonymous identity that can't be traced back to your real identity. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 16:37:01 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA05186 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:37:01 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA05098 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:36:40 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03745 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:35:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA14746; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:35:31 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14062.31299.783636.330476@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:35:31 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Linux on Hand Held Computers? In-Reply-To: <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> References: <14057.34727.278498.178520@kenai.me.umn.edu> <199903150809.AAA20670@netcom4.netcom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John C. Peterson writes: > The list appears to have "taken off" (pun intended). I just > checked and there are now 56 subscribers to linux-aviation from > all over the world: Australia, Canada, Europe and the US. Welcome to > everyone, please feel free to post questions and ideas! > > Let me throw out a topic of personal interest for discussion, namely > "What will the future hold for Linux and Hand Held Aviation related > computing???" I'm most interested in the smaller devices that will fit > in a shirt pocket, can easily be mounted on the yoke, panel or perhaps > a small "knee board", and has reasonable battery life. Here's some > things to reflect on; > > 1) What are the most promising platforms for Hand Held Aviation > Computing??? The 3Com Palm devices are obvious candidates: there > is already a good interface between Linux and PalmOS, small size, > good battery life, large existing user base, etc. I own a palm pilot, and I have fallen in love with it's simplicity, it's flexibility, it's ease of use, and it's hack-ability. > 2) What is the long term prospect of running Linux itself on such > devices??? I know there is a already a project that is taking on > the task of porting Linux to small memory environments. Check out > the uCLinux web web site at; > > http://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/uClinux/ (Main, US Site) > http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/~riel/uClinux/ (Mirror, Europe) For a non-techy person, PalmOS is pretty simple for loading and deleting applications and doing admin tasks. It's simple enough that there's not much that can go wrong, not much you can screw up, and not much to get your head around to figure out all the basics. As much as I like Linux, I'm not sure it would really contribute anything to the usefulness and simplicity of the palm pilot. I would vote for keeping it small, keeping it simple, and keep it running PalmOS. > 3) What would be the major advantage of running Linux itself on these > devices, or is it better to just stick with the native environments > (e.g. PalmOS)??? What about developing code in Java? For example, > see > > http://www.hewgill.com/pilot/jump/index.html (Jump) > http://www.cs.utah.edu/~mcdirmid/ghost/ (Ghost) > http://www.wabasoft.com/overview.html (Waba) I suppose the big advantage of running Linux on the pilot is that apps developed for linux would immediately run on the pilot ... or would they? Even with Linux running on the Palm Pilot, you have to be concerned with display size and capability. Do you have X11 on your pilot? Gtk? Tcl/Tk? Would these also be ported to the pilot? If so, would they fit? My Linux machine runs pretty well with 128Mb RAM ... but once in a while I think I might like to slap in another 128Mb. My palm pilot has 1Mb. Even back when I had a 386 with 4Mb of RAM unix ran pretty well until I tried to do anything graphics related. I guess my point is that there are enough hurdles to over come, that it might be just as easy to write a native PalmOS version of the app, rather than trying to wedge Linux + X11 + other libs + application + data onto the palm pilot. Linux makes a great development platform and could be used to develop palmos applications ... Linux is wonderful for server roles, wonderful for technical users, and wonderful for average users (if someone maintains the machine for them). But, I still hesitate to recommend Linux to ye olde random user who has to setup and maintain their own machine. I hesitate to recommend windows to these same people for the same reasons. No matter how simple MS tries to make it, it still is bizarre, hard to understand, and very complex and obfuscated in many areas. What I would love to see is something akin to PalmOS for desktop computers. This would provide an ultra simple environment for non-techy users. It would be simple and hard for them to screw up. They could run their applications and not have to spend much time keeping their machine alive. Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 20:47:21 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA21025 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:47:21 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA20973 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:47:06 +0100 Received: from blackbird.wt.net (216-119-135-22.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.22]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA03057 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:48:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <017c01be6fe4$c39374c0$3d8777d8@wt.net> From: "Keith Brown" To: Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:39:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org >> I noticed both Don and Jerry >> expressed similar interests. The thing that stopped me though was >> exposure to liability. I never discussed it with an attourney or other >> legal authority, it was just my concern for my financial welfare. > >> Anyone have any thoughts on this? Naturally, it'd be great is one of >> was actually a lawyer and wanted to throw in his $.02 worth, on a >> contingency basis, of course :-) > >My guess is that if you don't have anything, you are not likely to have >a problem. The reason the Aircraft makers where driven out of the small >aircraft market was not so much their making aircraft as their >appearance of having deep pockets. Not may A&P's where named in civil >actions and few would actually pay any losses because they generally >don't have anything to give (even at $45 an hour...) > >Also... If you have a group of individuals who have no assets in common, >who would you go after? > >I'm not in the leagal profession so you had better ask the attourney, >but I don't think the I would have much to worry about.. They would not >get much money out of me, so I doubt they would even try. Well, you're probably right about lack of assets being a deterrent to lawsuits. I guess at the time I was considering a shareware venture, and any business of any type that doesn't carry liability insurance is pretty foolish, and then having insurance, bang!, instantly you have deep enough pockets to sue. I think an open source or other licensing scheme where the product is free for non-commercial use and the source code is available would probably not have this problem, though again, I'm not sure of the legal principles or precedents involved. I know I've seen articles recently in some of the usual open source news outlets about aerospace companies flocking to open source technology for embedded systems like avionics and such, so I'm sure they are satisfied they can cover their ends. If someone really has a beef with you though, they may want to make your life a living hell for a few years, whether they will get anything monetary out of it or not. And if they *should* win a judgement against you, whether you have it or not doesn't make it go away. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 20:57:32 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA30641 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:57:32 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA30549 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:57:17 +0100 Received: from blackbird.wt.net (216-119-135-22.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.22]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA03781 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:58:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <018001be6fe6$2d1a1d80$3d8777d8@wt.net> From: "Keith Brown" To: Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:49:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org >I would guess that 99.999% of pilots would have enough sense not to >trust their lives completely in a win95 based product ... or for that >matter depend on any one single point of failure. Maybe, but I don't mean a failure in the OS, but a bug in the software. Though Linux is rock solid, it can't correct a programmer's mistakes :-( And if I'm not mistaken, there is at least one moving map system out there for general aviation that is Windows based. I kid you not! >I think that having all the appropriate disclaimers clearly posted >would definitely be required and helpful for disuading people from >naming you in a lawsuit. I don't doubt it would certainly help the case, but "apropriate" and "clearly posted" are other aspects that would be attacked by the plaintiff. >Taking a step back it seems really silly that a person would have to >hesitate to contribute something useful to society because of the >threat of being sued by someone who foolishly mis-used it. But I >guess that is life, at least here in the USA ... Yes, who would have thought a woman spilling coffee in her lap could sue because it was too hot, and win millions of dollars! >Maybe what you need to do is get a fake hotmail address and do all >your development with an anonymous identity that can't be traced back >to your real identity. :-) Hee hee, now that would instill confidence in my product! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 21:06:54 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA05517 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:06:54 +0100 Received: from meserv.me.umn.edu (meserv.me.umn.edu [134.84.196.1]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05451 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:06:45 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (curt@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by meserv.me.umn.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13850 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:06:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA16873; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:06:40 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14062.47568.812416.889841@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:06:40 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread In-Reply-To: <018001be6fe6$2d1a1d80$3d8777d8@wt.net> References: <018001be6fe6$2d1a1d80$3d8777d8@wt.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Curt wrote: > >I would guess that 99.999% of pilots would have enough sense not to > >trust their lives completely in a win95 based product ... or for that > >matter depend on any one single point of failure. Keith Brown writes: > Maybe, but I don't mean a failure in the OS, but a bug in the software. > Though Linux is rock solid, it can't correct a programmer's mistakes > :-( Yes, definitely, which is why I tacked on the "single point of failure" claus. Also, flakey hardware can make Linux look just as instable as windows. (You often don't notice flakey hardware in windows because you are used to rebooting frequently, or powering down every night.) > And if I'm not mistaken, there is at least one moving map system out > there for general aviation that is Windows based. I kid you not! Yes, there are several. I've seen the Jeppesen Flight Star program in action. I've seen one bad bug in it which reported incorrect distances to the destination. I've seen it crash and hang on reliable hardware ... Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 21:22:16 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA23818 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:22:16 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn68.southwind.net [206.53.97.88]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA23760 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:22:05 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA10096 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:21:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36EEBD19.690AD86C@cssgroup.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:20:41 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread References: <017c01be6fe4$c39374c0$3d8777d8@wt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Keith Brown wrote: > > Well, you're probably right about lack of assets being a deterrent to > lawsuits. I guess at the time I was considering a shareware venture, and any > business of any type that doesn't carry liability insurance is pretty > foolish, and then having insurance, bang!, instantly you have deep enough > pockets to sue. I think an open source or other licensing scheme where the > product is free for non-commercial use and the source code is available > would probably not have this problem, though again, I'm not sure of the > legal principles or precedents involved. Another option is a LLC (Limited Libility Company). It would limit your libility to some value based upon your investment in the company. You then become just an employee of the company (well almost). Then you carry a minimum of insurance and let the chips fall where they may... > I know I've seen articles recently > in some of the usual open source news outlets about aerospace companies > flocking to open source technology for embedded systems like avionics and > such, so I'm sure they are satisfied they can cover their ends. More likely because there is no clear way to pin the ownership and thus the responsibility on one specific person or company. But clearly the Open Source model also has development advantages too.. > If someone really has a beef with you though, they may want to make your > life a living hell for a few years, whether they will get anything monetary > out of it or not. And if they *should* win a judgement against you, whether > you have it or not doesn't make it go away. Yea, I suppose you are right.. But if you have 10 developers in 10 states, you are not likely to get civil cases even filed because they would have to file 10 differant suits... Their local courts cannot try the case w/o notifying you, and unless they can serve the papers directly, the case is going to be dropped. (US Law I'm told).. Now if you have offshore development... Things get even more unlikely... I'd say that if somebody wants to come after me, there is little I can do to stop them, and little they will collect if they do. -= Bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 16 22:56:16 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA13977 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:56:16 +0100 Received: from mailsrv.frc.com ([208.235.135.211]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13853 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:56:01 +0100 Received: from ibex.frc.com (sloth.frc.com [172.20.10.21]) by mailsrv.frc.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA1F3B for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:54:14 -0500 Received: from meierrj by ibex.frc.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m10N1mw-0007yLC; Tue, 16 Mar 99 16:54 EST From: "Dr. Robert J. Meier" To: Subject: Introduction Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:07:55 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01be6ff9$71742710$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199903151939.LAA15448@tr2.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Cyberflyers, Let me add to the introductions. My name is Robert Meier. I've ~1000 hrs in airplanes since 1977. My current ratings include Commercial, Instrument, Airplane, Single-Engine Land, High Altitude, Turbo, Basic Ground Instructor, and Instrument Ground Instructor. I'm currently pursuing my Certified Flight Instructor rating. I've ~35000 hrs on computers since 1977. My current proficiency includes linux, Irix, SGI Indigo, C, C++, perl, and octave. My 1/4 share of a 1966 Piper Cherokee 6 (PA32-300), N4015W, is based at Dupont-Lapeer Airport Michigan (D95), when not used to visit friends and family 200-1000 miles away. My Dell Dimension XPS-133c boots Win95 (<5%) and linux-2.2.1 (>90%). At work, I split my time between a Dell using WinNT/C and an SGI Indigo using Irix-6.5/C++. Accurate and programmable instrument flight simulation is my major interest in linux and flying, but my business concerns prevented me from contributing to flight gear. At present, I am using ProPilot99 from SubLogic but regret that I cannot program it to match the flight characteristics of a Piper Cherokee 6, nor modify missing or incorrect airports, navaids, etc. Accurate and reusable flight planning is my second interest. I currently use a forms (ANSI DIF ported from FoxPro Mac) based database to organize my flight plans. Before a trip, I can quickly print my intended flight plans, and several alternatives. The ability to quickly pick an alternative suitable to the weather constraints gives me the adaptability needed for safe winter flying on the East Coast of the United States. Until ~1985, the AOPA provided flight planning information customized for your aircraft. They'd arrive in a manilla envelope sealed with a sticker quoting FAR 91.3 ([PIC is responsible. PIC must obtain all pertinent information.]) In 1987, I flew from Michigan to California using one. (When I called shortly after, I was told that I should not have received it, since AOPA had discontinued the service a few years earlier.) Though obviously not a legal flight plan, their information was in flight plan format, and made an excellent flight planning checklist. Clear skies, Robert Meier P.S. I collect verses of the following song, Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all. The long, and the short, and the tall. Bless the instructors who taught us to fly. They say they're lucky that their still alive. If we retract the gear on the ramp, Nobody's blue eyes will be damp. So classroom or cockpit, ground school or flight school, Come on along, Bless 'em all. Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all. The long, and the short, and the tall. Bless all the briefers with weather reports. If they say it's raining, bring lotion and shorts. Amid icing and thunderstorms bide, A heck of a wild airplane ride. So forecast or current, 'mid cirrus or stratus, Come on along, Bless 'em all. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 08:13:43 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id IAA22301 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:13:43 +0100 Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA22297 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:13:35 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id XAA05423 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:13:33 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903170713.XAA05423@netcom18.netcom.com> Subject: Flight Planning (was Re: Introduction) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:13:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903151939.LAA15448@tr2.com> from "Jerry Kaidor" at Mar 15, 99 11:39:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Jerry Kaidor writes: > >Hello, > > I'd like to introduce myself. Name is Jerry Kaidor. I've been Linux-ing >for 7 or 8 years ( started with kernel version 0.95 ) and flying for three. >[...] > One thing I think a Linux system can be very good for, is flight >planning. Now that DUATS is accessable via telnet, I'm imagining a >system where I say "I'd like to fly the Turtle to Pismo Beach this >afternoon", and a full set of documents is printed, including charts, >flight log, etc, etc, and a flight plan filed with FSS. With a minimum >of human intervention. And with enough artificial intelligence to >say "whups, jerry, are you sure you want to do that? There's icing >at 5000....", and taking into account the particular capabilities and >limitations of my airplane ( "Xwind component is forcast to be 10knots >gusting to 15, didn't you almost groundloop the airplane last time >that happened?" :-) ). > I'll agree with this, and it appears that a few pilots out there had the same idea and have already taken a shot at this problem. I haven't tried them, or added them to the FAQ yet, but I've seen some Perl scripts designed to decode METAR reports, etc. You can find them on CPAN (and mirrors): http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/J/JB/JBRIGGS/Aviation-Report-1.02.tar.gz http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/J/JZ/JZAWODNY/Geo-METAR-1.12.tar.gz http://www.cpan.org/authors/id/MSOLOMON/Geo-WeatherNOAA-4.30.tar.gz There is a wealth of other quality weather data out there that's up for grabs (satellite and radar summaries from Intellicast, etc). It would be real neat to have something that could quickly retreive data from a variety of sources, and collate it in some coherent fashion. > I know flight planning isn't as sexy as the in-cockpit stuff, but >it can be an awful lot of work. To do it right, that is. And the >plug-together-tinkertoy nature of Unix could potentially make it >more doable than in Windows. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) Now is probably a good time to put in a plug for the Linux based flight planning software effort I started about a year ago. Actually, it's a resurrection of the Unix (Sun) based flight planning tool written by Steve Tynor way back in the late 80's. It's called fplan and you can find it at http://metalab.unc.edu/fplan/ It's come a long way since Steve's last public release, but there's still many obvious improvements that could be done. It's been out for a few months now, but I haven't received too much feedback in the way of suggestions for improvements yet. Comments and volunteers are welcome.... Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | "640 K is all the memory you -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | will *ever* need..." - Bill Gates o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 09:57:16 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA26632 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:57:16 +0100 Received: from truth.softcafe.net (root@truth.softcafe.net [153.105.252.98]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26605 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:57:07 +0100 Received: from surfer (111.los-angeles-31-32rs.ca.dial-access.att.net [12.72.18.111]) by truth.softcafe.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA31393 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:08:27 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990317010150.2337e3c4@softcafe.net> X-Sender: dcg@softcafe.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (16) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:01:50 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Digital ChoreoGraphics Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread In-Reply-To: <36EEBD19.690AD86C@cssgroup.com> References: <017c01be6fe4$c39374c0$3d8777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org In response to the concern expressed regarding legal issues, I can only say that law is not my field. Hence I would be interested in hearing a lawyer's response to these concerns. On the target application side, my interest is in entertainment only. I do NOT intend for this software to be used by pilots for flight planning, or for any purpose other than entertainment and personal enjoyment. WARNING - NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION While I may use flight planning software to entertian myself with pre-flight analysis, I perform all critical flight planning calculations using at least two separate methods, one of which is by hand. WARNING - NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION At 08:20 PM 3/16/99 +0000, you wrote: >Keith Brown wrote: >> >> Well, you're probably right about lack of assets being a deterrent to >> lawsuits. I guess at the time I was considering a shareware venture, and any >> business of any type that doesn't carry liability insurance is pretty >> foolish, and then having insurance, bang!, instantly you have deep enough >> pockets to sue. I think an open source or other licensing scheme where the >> product is free for non-commercial use and the source code is available >> would probably not have this problem, though again, I'm not sure of the >> legal principles or precedents involved. > >Another option is a LLC (Limited Libility Company). It would limit your >libility to some value based upon your investment in the company. You >then become just an employee of the company (well almost). Then you >carry a minimum of insurance and let the chips fall where they may... > >> I know I've seen articles recently >> in some of the usual open source news outlets about aerospace companies >> flocking to open source technology for embedded systems like avionics and >> such, so I'm sure they are satisfied they can cover their ends. > >More likely because there is no clear way to pin the ownership and thus >the responsibility on one specific person or company. But clearly the >Open Source model also has development advantages too.. > >> If someone really has a beef with you though, they may want to make your >> life a living hell for a few years, whether they will get anything monetary >> out of it or not. And if they *should* win a judgement against you, whether >> you have it or not doesn't make it go away. > >Yea, I suppose you are right.. But if you have 10 developers in 10 >states, you are not likely to get civil cases even filed because they >would have to file 10 differant suits... Their local courts cannot try >the case w/o notifying you, and unless they can serve the papers >directly, the case is going to be dropped. (US Law I'm told).. Now if >you have offshore development... Things get even more unlikely... I'd >say that if somebody wants to come after me, there is little I can do to >stop them, and little they will collect if they do. > >-= Bob =- >- >Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ >To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body >of a mail message to . > - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 09:58:54 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA27371 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:58:54 +0100 Received: from wrcmsco1.westrail.wa.gov.au (mail.westrail.wa.gov.au [202.14.133.195]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA27366 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:58:40 +0100 Received: by mail.westrail.wa.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:58:35 +0800 Message-ID: <61FB0A5E1C7DD211A0960000F674ACA839E31A@mail.westrail.wa.gov.au> From: "Schubert, Phil" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: FW: Engine Performance Curves/Equations/Sounds Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:58:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org [[PS]] Tom Atkinson wrote: > I am IT man for the Kevron Group which is > based here in Perth, Western Australia. My company does aerial surveys > and is based at Jandakot. [[PS]] I know Kevron. They have been around a long time. They were operational in the North with a short nose C402 (VH-CKI) when I was flying out of Port Hedland in the late 70's early 80's. I always felt sorry for the guys flying on oxygen at 20,000' > I work at the East Perth office (which is > becoming more and more Linux-ified every day!). [[PS]] You are not far from me. I work in the East Perth Terminal. I am acting Information Technology Services Manager for Westrail. I am looking at Linux both as an cheaper and more robust alternative to other OS's for signalling systems, and because of M$ have forgotten that they have things called "customers." > I also am pilot for them (1500 hrs total). [[PS]] I used to fly for Transwest, and then Skywest. (4,500 hours) > Their fleet is: [[PS]] > 2 x C404 (Titan, Cont IO-520) [[PS]] I have about 200 hrs in these plus > 500 in a C421 > 1 x C441 (Conquest, Garrett TPE331) > 1 x B60 (Duke, Lycoming IO-541) [[PS]] . Never got to fly one of these, > but always wanted to. > 4 x AC500S (Shrike, Lycoming IO-520) [[PS]] Nearly 1000 hours in these. > These were my favourite > 1 x TU206G [[PS]] 150 hours. Is this a turbocharged version, if so > would be especially interested in the graphs > 1 x C185 [[PS]] Never got a tail dragger endorsement > 1 x PAC Cresco (PT6 engine) > > I think I can help you out by getting hold of material such as POH. > Sound recordings should also be possible, if you can supply the > equipment. [[PS]] I'll see what I can do. I could use my laptop and record to a wave file. > I fly the Duke and C404. I probably could arrange for > recordings inside the C441 and Cresco. [[PS]] I stopped flying in 1982 because of a health problem. My son (18) is now doing his commercial license at the Royal Aero Club. Looking for part time work sweeping hangers, or anything to do with aviation. He is at Midland TAFE doing a Diploma in Airport Management. > The "Cresco", by the way, is the modern variant of the Fletcher > agricultural aircraft. I can't remember which mark of PT6 it has. [[PS]] Never seen the turbine version, but gee, that would have to be the most UGLY aircraft ever built if it has a long skinny nose!! I dare say the engine would be a PT6A-27 variant. They all are very similar. I have 1000 hours command time in a Twin Otter and some cockpit time in a King Air so are fairly familiar with the PT6. Basically the lower horspower versions are identical, just flat rated. Cheers Phil e-mail: philings@ozemail.com.au - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 13:01:55 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA03085 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:01:55 +0100 Received: from orpheus.amdahl.com (orpheus.amdahl.com [159.199.101.3]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA02991 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:01:45 +0100 Received: from minerva.amdahl.com([129.212.33.25]) (3168 bytes) by orpheus.amdahl.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:match-mx-hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:01:45 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.102 1998-Aug-2 #1 built 1998-Aug-14) Received: from amdahl.com by minerva.amdahl.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m10NF08-0005U4C; Wed, 17 Mar 99 04:00 PST Message-ID: <36EF9B02.124EC8FA@amdahl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:07:30 +0000 From: Sid Boyce Organization: amdahl.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-ac1 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "linux-aviation@nl.linux.org" Subject: Introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org I reside in the UK. I started learning to fly in 1990, licensed in Florida in 1992 as it looked as though the UK weather would drag that out for another couple of years. I fly C152's and PA28's and the highlight so far was a weekend away in the Frech Alps. My other hobbies are Ham radio where I've built and part desgined some complex gear like transceivers and test equipment, though demands on time have brought building to a near standstill. I only have Linux installed on my 2 machines and I use that for work (S/390 Hardware Specialist), packet radio and anything else I need to do. With Citrix winframe, X3270, Netscape, adobe acrobat, StarOffice and Applixware, that covers just about all I need to accomplish work tasks. I've been involved with Linux ever since Linus placed it up for ftp, so I've had the pleasure of seeing it develop at quite a pace and as a stable operating system, I've never been in a position where I couldn't work because of Linux, bearing in mind that I always use the bleeding edge kernels and applications. I think Linux in aviation has great possibilities, for one thing we could develop far more reliable applications than are possible for windows. Like all software, the user has the responsibility to ensure caution and cross-checking is employed to avoid nasty shocks in the crtitcal phases of a flight. In the USA, there is DUATS, over here we have no such tools, so planning is done by hand. My feeling is that over time, systems will develop to the point where substantial parts can be trusted and perhaps certified by the respective authorities. Here we are cautioned not to use GPS as our primary method of navigation, a point proved to me last Sunday when my GPS 90 at 2000 feet told me I needed more height, so go-to-nearest gave no output. I've yet to try FlightGear, for some years I've played with "icao", excellent work, except the "World" file was just for Germany, Switzerland and part of France. Whatever software is developed, I think it must be able to use available commercial databases for anywhere on the planet, Jeppesen seems to have the widest range available as exemplified in their training, planning and GPS software, so in the true spirit of Linux, a plea for realising the end of the know earth extends well beyond the borders of the USA. Regards -- ... Sid Boyce...Amdahl(Europe)...44-121 422 0375 Any opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corporation. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 16:39:15 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA07145 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:39:15 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA07056 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:39:02 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25747 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:39:14 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903171639.IAA25747@tr2.com> Subject: Re: Flight Planning (was Re: Introduction) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:39:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903170713.XAA05423@netcom18.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Mar 16, 99 11:13:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John C. Peterson wrote: > > http://metalab.unc.edu/fplan/ > > It's come a long way since Steve's last public release, but there's > still many obvious improvements that could be done. It's been out for > a few months now, but I haven't received too much feedback in the > way of suggestions for improvements yet. Comments and volunteers > are welcome.... > *** Wow John, You beat me to the punch! I had found fplan a few years ago, and had gotten it compiled and working on my Linux box. Just yesterday, I'd put the tar.gz up on my website for people to play with. As I remember, fplan had a good parser for a database file, another parser for inputting your desires. The main thing it lacked to be useful was - I forget exactly what - but it was lacking some major piece of the leg calculation, either density altitude or Winds Aloft. I had even gotten a copy of the O'Rielly Lex&Yacc book, specifically to play with fplan. I had also started experimenting with a sockets-based interface for it to suck down DUATS data, but that never went anywhere. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 16:55:43 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA18250 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:55:43 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18240 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:55:33 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25840 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:55:38 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903171655.IAA25840@tr2.com> Subject: Re: Introduction and possible thread To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:54:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <14062.29914.252408.795548@kenai.me.umn.edu> from "Curtis L. Olson" at Mar 16, 99 09:12:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Curtis L. Olson wrote: > I've played around a bit with the Jeppesen flight planning/moving map > software. I managed to spot one hideous bug. *** Another problem with the Jeppesen data in general has to do with class D airports, or rather the class D airspace surrouding them. I have played with two products using the Jeppesen database, and they both behave the same: Whereas class B and class C airspaces are shown with their actual shapes and heights, class D are calculated algorithmically - that is, the software assumes that they are always round, X miles in radius, and up to 2500 feet AGL. Real class D airspaces are not necessarily any of the above! Especially in a complicated airspace like the SF Bay Area. My Lowrance Airmap shows that I am infringing on Palo Alto's airspace when I know damned well it doesn't start till that tower over there! And all the class D's around the Bay are truncated in height to clear the overlaying class B or class C. It's a pity, because a major potential use of a GPS is to help you thread the needle getting in and out of a complex airspace like this. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 18:22:50 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA28842 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:22:50 +0100 Received: from frodo.gezernet.co.il (frodo.gezernet.co.il [192.115.6.11]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA28838 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:22:40 +0100 Message-Id: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> Received: (qmail 29834 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1999 17:22:38 -0000 Received: from butch.gezernet.co.il (192.115.7.241) by frodo.gezernet.co.il with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 17:22:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 3903 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1999 17:22:51 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO gezernet.co.il) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 17:22:51 -0000 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Pilot log book software for Linux? From: amos@gezernet.co.il (Amos Shapira) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:22:51 +0200 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, I'm a glider pilot (but sometimes take an hour of engined flight lesson) and the thing I miss the most right now is a good pilot log book program which I can use under Linux. The way it would look if I had time to write it would be a Java or Gnome application which saves its data in XML format, export/import to/from comma-separated file format and extensive intelligence (e.g. figure out the cost of a flight from the time, method of launch, number of seats, who I flew with (instructor vs. a guest vs. a club member), figure out the data about the aircraft (seats, price, owner, type) from its designation. Automatic summery of columns by aircraft type, flight type, period (last 6 months vs. last 12 months), launch method etc. Having a version in Java should help a lot in making this portable - I'm looking forward to be able to run such a beast on my Psion 5, portability is also a reason for using XML. Does anyone know about such a thing, or plan to write one? I'd love to write it (and polish my Java, XML and maybe CORBA on the way) but I lack the time. Thanks, --Amos --Amos Shapira | "Of course Australia was marked for 133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st. | glory, for its people had been chosen Jerusalem 93 805 | by the finest judges in England." ISRAEL amos@gezernet.co.il | -- Anonymous - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 21:04:46 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA05944 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:04:46 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05856 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:04:31 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26736 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:51 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903172104.NAA26736@tr2.com> Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> from "Amos Shapira" at Mar 17, 99 07:22:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Amos Shapira wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm a glider pilot (but sometimes take an hour of engined flight > lesson) and the thing I miss the most right now is a good pilot log > book program which I can use under Linux. > *** The only time I really want something like this is when I'm at the insurance agent, and she gives me this form asking how many hours I've put in "this make & model" in the past 90 days, past year, etc. -Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 21:11:13 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id VAA09996 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:11:13 +0100 Received: from netcom3.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom3.netcom.com [192.100.81.103]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA09900 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:11:04 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom3.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id MAA17888 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:11:03 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903172011.MAA17888@netcom3.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:11:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> from "Amos Shapira" at Mar 17, 99 07:22:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Amos Shapira writes: > >Hi, > >I'm a glider pilot (but sometimes take an hour of engined flight >lesson) and the thing I miss the most right now is a good pilot log >book program which I can use under Linux. > >The way it would look if I had time to write it would be a Java or >Gnome application which saves its data in XML format, export/import >to/from comma-separated file format and extensive intelligence >(e.g. figure out the cost of a flight from the time, method of launch, >number of seats, who I flew with (instructor vs. a guest vs. a club >member), figure out the data about the aircraft (seats, price, owner, >type) from its designation. Automatic summery of columns by aircraft >type, flight type, period (last 6 months vs. last 12 months), launch >method etc. > >Having a version in Java should help a lot in making this portable - >I'm looking forward to be able to run such a beast on my Psion 5, >portability is also a reason for using XML. > >Does anyone know about such a thing, or plan to write one? I'd love >to write it (and polish my Java, XML and maybe CORBA on the way) but >I lack the time. > >Thanks, > Hi Amos, There is a gtk+ based pilot's logbook program, see: ftp://ftp.stampede.org/skibum/gplbp-0.90.tar.gz I think most power pilots would like the design and find the features adequate. However, from one glider pilot to another, I found the design for supporting soaring flights to be sorely lacking. For example, there is no mechanism for entering release or maximum altitudes. If you have ever compared plain paper logbooks, you notice that glider and power logbooks are *very* different. I think that electronic logbooks that attempt to support multiple category aircraft should be designed using different "modes", that use appropriate entry forms for the respective categories. (I hope my complaints on this are taken as constructive). There are also a number of spreadsheet based logbooks out there that work under Linux. One I have not tried, but seen mentioned several times on USENET can be found at; http://home.sprynet.com/~jayschne/ However, I believe this is also designed for powered aircraft. I recall seeing at least one spreadsheet based logbook for soaring flights. Unfortunately, I didn't save the reference :^( Let us know if you turn up anything. Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, because all -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | of the best things in life are free! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 22:08:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA12446 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:08:12 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12433 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:08:02 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27000 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:08:21 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903172208.OAA27000@tr2.com> Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:08:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199903172011.MAA17888@netcom3.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Mar 17, 99 12:11:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John C. Peterson wrote: > > I think most power pilots would like the design and find the features > adequate. However, from one glider pilot to another, I found the design > for supporting soaring flights to be sorely lacking. For example, there > is no mechanism for entering release or maximum altitudes. If you have > ever compared plain paper logbooks, you notice that glider and power > logbooks are *very* different. I think that electronic logbooks that > attempt to support multiple category aircraft should be designed using > different "modes", *** Modes, ugh. I know of no quicker way to "bug up" a piece of software. I think a better approach would be to have an ascii config file that specifies what fields are included, and how they are related. A sample config file would be included for power pilots, and another for glider pilots. Said config file to be of easily understood form, with provision for embedded comments, etc. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 22:23:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA26171 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:23:12 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn112.southwind.net [206.53.97.132]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26129 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:23:02 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (halley [192.168.10.25]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04487 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:22:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:22:18 -0600 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? References: <199903172208.OAA27000@tr2.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Jerry Kaidor wrote: > > John C. Peterson wrote: > > > > I think most power pilots would like the design and find the features > > adequate. However, from one glider pilot to another, I found the design > > for supporting soaring flights to be sorely lacking. For example, there > > is no mechanism for entering release or maximum altitudes. If you have > > ever compared plain paper logbooks, you notice that glider and power > > logbooks are *very* different. I think that electronic logbooks that > > attempt to support multiple category aircraft should be designed using > > different "modes", > > *** Modes, ugh. I know of no quicker way to "bug up" a piece of software. > I think a better approach would be to have an ascii config file > that specifies what fields are included, and how they are related. A > sample config file would be included for power pilots, and another for > glider pilots. Said config file to be of easily understood form, with > provision for embedded comments, etc. Oh it's even easier than that... Using Java and a JDBC driver you can simply build a program that can dynamicly handle fields in a database record... Your program would then be reduced to accepting data for specific field types for log entries, and producing generic queries to generate reports... Then you just supply a default database for the types of log books you want, and a tool to allow a user to add or remove fields in the records so they can coustomize things the way they want. The hard part would making the data entry screens and report screens look nice, but you could provide a way the user could build custom reports and entry screens, while providing the basics. You would just store the interface code in the database as serilized Java classes... -= Bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 17 22:32:36 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA01090 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:36 +0100 Received: from exchg-gw.noblestar.com ([206.138.153.112]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA01059 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:29 +0100 Received: by exchg-gw.noblestar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:28:35 -0500 Message-ID: <99805B014A26D211BC3100A0C9B72CB862C88A@exchange-va.noblestar.com> From: "Fox, Dan" To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: List management Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:31:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Is there any way to set this list to digest? I didn't see it in the help file from nl.linux.org. --dan fox - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 09:22:29 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA00022 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:22:29 +0100 Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA32746 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:22:14 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id AAA01235 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:22:13 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903180822.AAA01235@netcom18.netcom.com> Subject: Re: List management To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:22:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <99805B014A26D211BC3100A0C9B72CB862C88A@exchange-va.noblestar.com> from "Fox, Dan" at Mar 17, 99 04:31:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fox, Dan writes: > >Is there any way to set this list to digest? I didn't see it in the help >file from nl.linux.org. > Dan, Under Majordomo, which is used to host this list, the digest form is actually a different list. In this case, it would be "linux-aviation-digest". I just checked, and it doesn't seem to exist. I will have to check with our host, Rik Reil, to see about getting it set up. Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | How many times would you like to -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | reboot Microsoft Windows today? o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 09:30:18 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA06772 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:18 +0100 Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06769 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:10 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id AAA01603 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:30:07 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:30:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> from "Bob Deep" at Mar 17, 99 03:22:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep writes: > >Jerry Kaidor wrote: >> >> John C. Peterson wrote: >> > >> > I think most power pilots would like the design and find the features >> > adequate. However, from one glider pilot to another, I found the design >> > for supporting soaring flights to be sorely lacking. For example, there >> > is no mechanism for entering release or maximum altitudes. If you have >> > ever compared plain paper logbooks, you notice that glider and power >> > logbooks are *very* different. I think that electronic logbooks that >> > attempt to support multiple category aircraft should be designed using >> > different "modes", >> >> *** Modes, ugh. I know of no quicker way to "bug up" a piece of software. >> I think a better approach would be to have an ascii config file >> that specifies what fields are included, and how they are related. A >> sample config file would be included for power pilots, and another for >> glider pilots. Said config file to be of easily understood form, with >> provision for embedded comments, etc. > >Oh it's even easier than that... Using Java and a JDBC driver you can >simply build a program that can dynamicly handle fields in a database >record... Your program would then be reduced to accepting data for >specific field types for log entries, and producing generic queries to >generate reports... > >Then you just supply a default database for the types of log books you >want, and a tool to allow a user to add or remove fields in the records >so they can coustomize things the way they want. > >The hard part would making the data entry screens and report screens >look nice, but you could provide a way the user could build custom >reports and entry screens, while providing the basics. You would just >store the interface code in the database as serilized Java classes... > I like your idea of formulating the problem as a database problem. I'm not realy convinced you need anything all that compilicated though. Would something like xmbase-grok be adequate for the job? If I remember right, it's not that hard to build custom input forms for it. Searching is also supported.... Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | The box said; "requires Windows NT -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | 4.0 or better", so I installed Linux. o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 15:28:10 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA00705 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:28:10 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn66.southwind.net [206.53.97.86]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00662 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:27:59 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA29050 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:27:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F10D11.B4E83C89@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:26:25 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Pilot log book software for Linux? References: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > Bob Deep writes: > > > >The hard part would making the data entry screens and report screens > >look nice, but you could provide a way the user could build custom > >reports and entry screens, while providing the basics. You would just > >store the interface code in the database as serilized Java classes... > > > > I like your idea of formulating the problem as a database problem. I'm > not realy convinced you need anything all that compilicated though. Would > something like xmbase-grok be adequate for the job? If I remember right, > it's not that hard to build custom input forms for it. Searching is also > supported.... > I don't know about xmbase-grok so I don't know.... I just reciently learned JDBC, and I like it...So right now this new tool looks like the solution to all my problems (grin). It is also Java, so it is portable and not tied to one specific database product... -= bob=- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 15:46:53 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA29869 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:46:53 +0100 Received: from lrz.uni-muenchen.de (root@dialc142.ppp.lrz-muenchen.de [129.187.26.142]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA29782 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:46:43 +0100 Received: (from root@localhost) by lrz.uni-muenchen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00850; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:28:44 +0100 From: Eugene Leitl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:28:43 +0100 (CET) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> References: <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Even small hard drives don't like many g's, so using solid state drives which are immune to vibration appears sensible. Besides of PC cards with a few 10 MBytes flash I've seen solutions which emulate an EIDE drive ~40 MBytes, which is more than enough to boot up a usable Linux system. It looks like a small board populated with flash chips and has an EIDE (both standard and laptop version) port, but I have no idea how expensive that is, and I don't know where to look. Has anybody an idea? I think that hardware from http://corelcomputer.org ( http://netwinder.org ) because of the small footprint and good price/performance ratio could also be of interest for aviation applications, though a small notebook looks like the canonical hardware platform for amateurs. The MIT wearable group (start looking at http://wearable.org ) has a number of very compact, relatively inexpensive shock-proof DIY designs based on industry standard small-footprint cards some of which even come with affordable head-up display. GPS boards cost next to nothing, magnetic sensors for heading info should also be possible to find (in a pinch, one might whip up something using a Hall sensor, cobble together a circuit for signal level adjustment and pipe it into audio-in, reading the signal from /dev/dsp), and there are public domain GIS solutions including map plotters with GPS input out there. If you can hold up an IP connection to the ground with radio modems (there are some solutions up to 20 miles range), or via cellular modem you can use SpeakFreely for (secure) voice connections to the ground, and offer your GPS coordinate or even still video from a webcam via a service so that they can be tracked by the ground station. An even more wacko idea would be putting a corrective optics with a focus at infinity in front of the linear CCD of a hacked scanner and use the thing to acquire high-resolution imaging of below terrain, streaming the result to a hard drive. The stripes can be later combined into contiguous imagery. One would perhaps have to mount the CCD head onto a gyro-stabilized platform against the vibration, though. It looks as if one can create something very interesting from existing components with relatively modest investments in hardware. I don't have the time nor the means to play with this stuff, but perhaps somebody here has. Regards, Eugene Leitl - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 17:06:55 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA28767 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:06:55 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA28753 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:06:46 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA30761 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:07:44 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903181707.JAA30761@tr2.com> Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:07:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> from "Eugene Leitl" at Mar 18, 99 12:28:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Eugene Leitl wrote: > > Even small hard drives don't like many g's, so using solid state > drives which are immune to vibration appears sensible. Besides of > PC cards with a few 10 MBytes flash I've seen solutions which emulate > an EIDE drive ~40 MBytes, which is more than enough to boot up a > usable Linux system. It looks like a small board populated with *** I just bought a 32-meg Compact Flash card for my digital camera. Brand "LexarMedia" - the street price is down to about $80 on these. 64-meg cards are still somewhat pricy, at $180. But I expect they will be coming down too. Bear in mind that these are "Compact Flash" cards - they are even smaller than PCMCIA cards, with a footprint the size of a large postage stamp. Sexy stuff. Plugged into my W95 laptop, the CF card looks just like a disk drive. I haven't checked for Linux support of flash cards, but given that Compact Flash is a public standard, I would be surprised if Linux didn't support it. I have personally put together a usable Linux in 20 megs of disk space. That included an Xserver and networking. It did not, however, include development tools. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 17:11:49 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA00304 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:11:49 +0100 Received: from zaphod.iar.nrc.ca (zaphod.iar.nrc.ca [132.246.192.19]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA00301 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:11:39 +0100 Received: from zaphod.iar.nrc.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zaphod.iar.nrc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01293 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:01:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199903181601.LAA01293@zaphod.iar.nrc.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:01:48 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew.Bastian@NRC.ca Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org In-Reply-To: <199903181707.JAA30761@tr2.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On 18 Mar, Jerry Kaidor wrote: > Eugene Leitl wrote: > > Plugged into my W95 laptop, the CF card looks just like a disk drive. I > haven't checked for Linux support of flash cards, but given that Compact > Flash is a public standard, I would be surprised if Linux didn't support it. > Flash card PCMCI cards work fine with Linux. I've been using it to copy stuff from out digital camera to my laptop. Works great! -- Matthew Bastian National Research Council of Canada Institute for Aerospace Research, Bldg U-61 Ottawa, Ontario Canada, K1A 0R6 613-998-3337 Matthew.Bastian@nrc.ca - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 19:30:33 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA18094 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:30:33 +0100 Received: from mailsrv.frc.com ([208.235.135.211]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17985 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:30:23 +0100 Received: from ibex.frc.com (sloth.frc.com [172.20.10.21]) by mailsrv.frc.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA72EF for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:28:34 -0500 Received: from meierrj by ibex.frc.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m10NhX0-0007yMC; Thu, 18 Mar 99 13:28 EST From: "Dr. Robert J. Meier" To: Subject: Electronic pilot log book concerns Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:42:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000901be716f$0f8cb220$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Flyers, > Does anyone know about such a thing, or plan to write one? I'd love > to write it (and polish my Java, XML and maybe CORBA on the way) but > I lack the time. I've been watching the thread with interest. A few concerns have kept me from using an electronic log in the past. Are there existing solutions to these concerns? How could they be solved in a new linux product? How do you handle endorsements? (The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration requires signatures in a "permanent record" for periodic proficiency testing. e.g. BFRs, ICCs) How do you show it to an instructor or examiner? (The endorsements are examined by each new instructor or examiner for the above tests as well as rating tests.) How do you conveniently update it when you are away from home? (I don't own a laptop, and like to update my log as soon as I get to my destination hotel before I begin days of concentration on the business reasons for the trip.) I currently use small (~10x20cm) paper log books. I keep my old logs in a safe place, and carry my current (4th) log book with me. Occassionally when I have to fill in forms, I wish I had electronic search and compilation. Thank you, Bob P.S. I collect verses of the following song, Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all. The long, and the short, and the tall. Bless the mechanics who work on the wings. One day they might learn to fix the darn things. If the engine should happen to stall, We're in for a heck of a fall. So squawk sheets and placards, of ADs and SBs, Come on along, Bless 'em all. Bless 'em all, Bless 'em all. The long, and the short, and the tall. Bless the controllers whose guidance is deft. One day, they might learn their right from their left. And if ever the radio quits, We're listening to rock and roll hits. So contact the tower, and cleared to continue, Come on along, Bless 'em all. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 19:59:44 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA08751 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:59:44 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn97.southwind.net [206.53.97.117]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA08742 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:59:34 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA05320 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:58:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36F14CAE.399AB8E3@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:57:50 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Electronic pilot log book concerns References: <000901be716f$0f8cb220$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org "Dr. Robert J. Meier" wrote: > > Flyers, > > > Does anyone know about such a thing, or plan to write one? I'd love > > to write it (and polish my Java, XML and maybe CORBA on the way) but > > I lack the time. > > I've been watching the thread with interest. A few concerns > have kept me from using an electronic log in the past. Are there > existing solutions to these concerns? How could they be solved in > a new linux product? > > How do you handle endorsements? > (The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration requires > signatures in a "permanent record" for periodic > proficiency testing. e.g. BFRs, ICCs) Hmmm... I wonder what the FAA would accept... I guess, that worst case, you have a seperate log book with the signatures and ID's and you would then just enter the data into the electronic version of the log book. Then when you needed to show signature proof of something, you would just produce this hard copy signiture log... IF you had a scanner, you could also scan the image of the log entry and store it with the log records in your database for future review and reporting. > How do you show it to an instructor or examiner? > (The endorsements are examined by each new instructor > or examiner for the above tests as well as rating > tests.) Well, If you had it scanned, you could just print a copy and show it.. If not you could produce the hard copy records. > How do you conveniently update it when you are away from home? > (I don't own a laptop, and like to update my log > as soon as I get to my destination hotel before I > begin days of concentration on the business reasons > for the trip.) In this case, you would have to transfer the data to the electronic version when you got home, so I suppose you would have to write it down on some form, then when you arrive home, enter the data. I suppose you could, if you had e-mail access somehow, manage to fit an e-mail front end to import log entries from there, but if you don't have a lap top, you don't likely have e-mail, ftp, or even web access. > > I currently use small (~10x20cm) paper log books. > I keep my old logs in a safe place, and carry my current (4th) > log book with me. Occassionally when I have to fill in forms, I > wish I had electronic search and compilation. For you the question would be... "Is it worth it?" Even the best log program in the world would be worthless unless you want to take the time to do the data entry.... For those of us who travel with lap tops packed in the back (or front) seats of the 172 this is not as much of a problem. But it seems you have a very good habbit using the sytem you now use, so you might want to stick with it... -= bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 23:39:32 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA02865 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:39:32 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA02847 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:39:17 +0100 Received: from murray (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA09203 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:39:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990318141930.00972500@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:19:30 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Electronic pilot log book concerns In-Reply-To: <000901be716f$0f8cb220$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> References: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Paralyzing yourselves by worrying about liability is never going to get anyone anywhere. It just causes innovation to cease. Do consider how flaky Microsoft's products are and how many people depend on them (I know, it isn't quite the same thing) but people seem to accept flaky software as a normal, everyday fact of life and it is interesting that there aren't more suits against Microsoft. Don't sweat it. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 18 23:39:35 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA02900 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:39:35 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA02846 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:39:16 +0100 Received: from murray (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA09200 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:39:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:15:21 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> References: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 12:28 PM 3/18/99 +0100, you wrote: >The MIT wearable group (start looking at http://wearable.org ) has a >number of very compact, relatively inexpensive shock-proof DIY designs >based on industry standard small-footprint cards some of which even >come with affordable head-up display. Well, they don't come with anything since you have to build the system yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see http://www.liquidimage.com and http://www.flexipc.com/Webpages/index.html. This seems to be what is real right now. I also believe that rotating media will probably work if you mount it on your person. The human body is a pretty good shock absorber and you are probably going to protect yourself from discomfort which therefore protects the rotating media. Using flash as boot media might be a good idea tho'. >GPS boards cost next to nothing, >magnetic sensors for heading info should also be possible to find >(in a pinch, one might whip up something using a Hall sensor, cobble >together a circuit for signal level adjustment and pipe it into >audio-in, reading the signal from /dev/dsp), and there are public >domain GIS solutions including map plotters with GPS input out there. Well, which is more important to you, magnetic heading or magnetic course (track)? If you are going somewhere, course is probably more useful and it comes out of your GPS so you don't need to mess about with flux gates. >If you can hold up an IP connection to the ground with radio modems >(there are some solutions up to 20 miles range), or via cellular >modem you can use SpeakFreely for (secure) voice connections to >the ground, and offer your GPS coordinate or even still video from >a webcam via a service so that they can be tracked by the ground station. If you are looking for a relatively long-range data link, it is difficult to be amateur packet radio. Get your ham license and running a 9600 bps half-duplex data link is also a COTS proposition. You could even add in a link to the Internet if you were so inclined. Broadcasting position and altitude could be fairly interesting to play with. At this point I am thinking about using my hopefull-soon-to-arrive wearable computer with head-mounted display (HMD, not a HUD) to display useful information from my GPS, air data computer, and engine monitor. I think that it would be useful to always have AoA, airspeed, G loading, ground track, engine warnings, etc., always in my field of view, even if I am looking back over my shoulder at a target I have just passed while doing ACM. >An even more wacko idea would be putting a corrective optics with a >focus at infinity in front of the linear CCD of a hacked scanner and >use the thing to acquire high-resolution imaging of below terrain, >streaming the result to a hard drive. The stripes can be later >combined into contiguous imagery. One would perhaps have to mount >the CCD head onto a gyro-stabilized platform against the vibration, >though. Jeppesen has terrain info available with sufficient detail to allow you to add terrain info into your map or synthesized forward view. Call up Jeppesen and, for about $100, they will send you a sample of their full database. That makes it possible to write code to process their data without having to subscribe up front. It is certainly easier than trying to collect the terrain info yourself. There is already enough work to do. No need to create more. >It looks as if one can create something very interesting from existing >components with relatively modest investments in hardware. I don't >have the time nor the means to play with this stuff, but perhaps >somebody here has. Already doing it. My LiquidImage M-1 and ViA-II haven't arrived yet (8 week lead time) but I am already thinking about this. Oh yeah, and I plan to run Linux on this thing. BTW, does anyone know of any reasonable speech recognition software that runs on Linux? I don't think that a keyboard will be too useful in the cockpit. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 02:41:41 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA12107 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:41:41 +0100 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom16.netcom.com [192.100.81.129]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA12104 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:41:33 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom16.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id RAA25420 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:41:26 -0800 (PST) From: "John C. Peterson" Message-Id: <199903190141.RAA25420@netcom16.netcom.com> Subject: Automatic Generation of Soaring Forecasts To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:41:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> from "Brian Lloyd" at Mar 18, 99 02:15:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org I wanted to start a separate thread that is somewhat related to the previous discussion about collating weather data available from the Internet for preflight planning. I'm not sure how many glider pilots there are on the list yet, but let me also throw out some thoughts about another pet project I have been fiddling with lately, namely constructing your own Soaring Forecasts from Internet data. Over the last year or two, I've noticed that the amount of quality weather data available over the net (forecasts and observations) that are suitable for preparing your own Soaring Forecasts has really grown. Some of you may be familiar with Kevin Ford's Thermal Index Calculator, and for some areas (like Southern California) the NWS now provides a web based "ready to go" soaring forecast that is updated twice a day. In our area, the state water district even has some real time stations that can provide temperature, wind speed and direction. One of my pet gripes about web based information is that the process of "surfing" for information is really pretty time consuming and in general not very constructive. I'm much more interested in software that "works for me" not the other way around. So here's my basic idea: write a script that you run from crontab on a regular basis (say twice a day) that grabs the information and formulates a Soaring forecast of it's own (say thermal, ridge and wave forecasts). The script then compares the forecast conditions against some user configurable threshold, and if things look like they are going to be "booming" that day, it sends you an alert by e-mail: "Drop what you are doing, and get your ass out to the gliderport!" It's actually not that hard to implement, in fact I've already cobbled together a working version, though it's perhaps not polished enough for general release. There are several command line URL "grabbers" (like curl, wget, or lynx with -dump) that can be used to fetch the pages. Now comes the slightly messy part: parsing the information from the pages. My current implementation uses tools like awk, sed, etc. It works fine, but I'm not real satisfied with this approach. This is an area where I would appreciate some of your thoughts. I'm well versed in all the string manipulation tools and languages; awk, sed, tcl, perl, icon, etc. However, it would be nice if this problem could be implemented in a manner that doesn't require the user to be an experienced programmer to set it up. There's another issue as well. You can bet that the format of the pages will change every so often, so implementations that are more complex will be a bigger pain in the rear to maintain. Are there any efforts out there to create a user friendly (e.g. usable by non tcl, perl hackers) software package for extracting information from formatted documents???? Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Installing Micro$oft Windows on a PC is -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | like putting wagon wheels on a Porsche! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 03:13:29 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id DAA08837 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:13:29 +0100 Received: from ns1.lr.net (ns1.lr.net [205.219.188.10]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA08833 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:13:20 +0100 Received: from plym1-7.worldpath.net ([206.152.188.77]) by ns1.lr.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA26169 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:13:11 -0400 Date: 18 Mar 99 17:28:07 -0500 From: ashw@lr.net (Ash R. J. Wyllie) Subject: Re: Electronic pilot log book concerns To: "Dr. Robert J. Meier" In-Reply-To: <000901be716f$0f8cb220$a89405c7@meierrj.frc.com> Message-ID: <1851.746T365T10482089@lr.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: THOR 2.5a (Amiga;TCP/IP) Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Excerpted from the mind of Dr. Robert J. Meier; >Flyers, >> Does anyone know about such a thing, or plan to write one? I'd love >> to write it (and polish my Java, XML and maybe CORBA on the way) but >> I lack the time. > I've been watching the thread with interest. A few concerns >have kept me from using an electronic log in the past. Are there >existing solutions to these concerns? How could they be solved in >a new linux product? > How do you handle endorsements? > (The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration requires > signatures in a "permanent record" for periodic > proficiency testing. e.g. BFRs, ICCs) > How do you show it to an instructor or examiner? > (The endorsements are examined by each new instructor > or examiner for the above tests as well as rating > tests.) > How do you conveniently update it when you are away from home? > (I don't own a laptop, and like to update my log > as soon as I get to my destination hotel before I > begin days of concentration on the business reasons > for the trip.) > I currently use small (~10x20cm) paper log books. >I keep my old logs in a safe place, and carry my current (4th) >log book with me. Occassionally when I have to fill in forms, I >wish I had electronic search and compilation. >Thank you, >Bob I suspect that you'll always need to keep a paper log. I do, but I also use a regular database program to keep track of flight times. Endorsments and other paper work are held in my log book. It's about the only legal way. I was going to write an Arexx script to do currency stuff, but the feds changed the rules... -ash (Paging Peter LaNague) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 09:20:34 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA21759 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:20:34 +0100 Received: from smtp-server.nlr.nl (spider.nlr.nl [137.17.80.200]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21753 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:20:26 +0100 Received: from narsim.nlr.nl (narsim-nlr.nlr.nl [137.17.168.4]) by smtp-server.nlr.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/NLR 16/03/99) with ESMTP id JAA26465; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:20:26 +0100 (CET) X-Disclaimer: "The National Aerospace Laboratory NLR DOES NOT ACCEPT ANY FINANCIAL COMMITMENT derived from this message." Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by narsim.nlr.nl (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA07794 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:20:26 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:20:26 +0100 (MET) From: Jacco van Schaik X-Sender: jacco@narsim To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Brian Lloyd wrote: > I also believe that rotating media will probably work if you mount it on > your person. The human body is a pretty good shock absorber ... My discman doesn't seem to think so... Groeten, - Jacco -- Think about it: | In Real Life: Jacco van Schaik If the wheel had never been | Mail me at: jacco@nlr.nl reinvented, we'd still be | Spam bait: postmaster@localhost driving on logs... | See also http://www.nlr.nl/NARSIM.html - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 13:39:34 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA15730 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:39:34 +0100 Received: from orpheus.amdahl.com (orpheus.amdahl.com [159.199.101.3]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA15629 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:39:25 +0100 Received: from minerva.amdahl.com([129.212.33.25]) (2139 bytes) by orpheus.amdahl.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:match-mx-hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 04:39:25 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.102 1998-Aug-2 #1 built 1998-Aug-14) Received: from amdahl.com by minerva.amdahl.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m10NyXd-0006amC; Fri, 19 Mar 99 04:38 PST Message-ID: <36F246B9.6EF1C787@amdahl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:44:41 +0000 From: Sid Boyce Organization: amdahl.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.3-ac1 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Electronic pilot log book concerns References: <199903171722.SAA28838@humbolt.nl.linux.org> <3.0.6.32.19990318141930.00972500@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Brian Lloyd wrote: > > Paralyzing yourselves by worrying about liability is never going to get > anyone anywhere. It just causes innovation to cease. Do consider how > flaky Microsoft's products are and how many people depend on them (I know, > it isn't quite the same thing) but people seem to accept flaky software as > a normal, everyday fact of life and it is interesting that there aren't > more suits against Microsoft. > > Don't sweat it. > > Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies > brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 > http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 > +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- > I entirely agree, a certain amount of sensible caution is required, but that should not stop the search for good tools. If you go to download the databases for the US, there is a huge warning splattered across the top as to useability, but I'm sure one day ther will be improved and tested to the point where every aspect will be factually correct. Microsoft stuff that crashes, burns or goes senile, yeah!, It DOES THAT!, just REBOOT. Regards -- ... Sid Boyce...Amdahl(Europe)...44-121 422 0375 Any opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corporation. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 14:54:23 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA26968 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:54:23 +0100 Received: from mbunix.mitre.org (mbunix.mitre.org [129.83.20.100]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26963 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:54:14 +0100 Received: from FUZZY (fuzzy.mitre.org [129.83.20.83]) by mbunix.mitre.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18849 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from m25272-pc.mitre.org (128.29.179.151) by fuzzy.mitre.org with SMTP id 796364; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:54:13 EST Message-ID: <36F2563F.3076B9D8@mitre.org> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:50:55 -0500 From: mcallaha@mitre.org (Michael Callaham) Organization: The MITRE Corporation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-19990120M (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff References: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Brian Lloyd wrote: ... > yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see > http://www.liquidimage.com and http://www.flexipc.com/Webpages/index.html. > This seems to be what is real right now. Which link on the http://www.liquidimage.com should one follow to see info on a wearable based on COTS components? --Michael "This is an informal communication." -- Michael B. Callaham, Sc.D. mcallaha@mitre.org | The MITRE Corporation (703) 883-5596 voice -+-o-+- 1820 Dolley Madison Blvd., MS W281 -5583 fax CAASD McLean, VA 22102-3481 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 16:10:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA09760 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:10:12 +0100 Received: from lrz.uni-muenchen.de (root@dialc218.ppp.lrz-muenchen.de [129.187.26.218]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA09675 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:10:01 +0100 Received: (from root@localhost) by lrz.uni-muenchen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00868; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:06:28 +0100 From: Eugene Leitl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:06:26 +0100 (CET) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> References: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14066.26344.705814.332077@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Brian Lloyd writes: > Well, they don't come with anything since you have to build the system > yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see Of course, that the cheapest way to do it! > Well, which is more important to you, magnetic heading or magnetic course > (track)? If you are going somewhere, course is probably more useful and it > comes out of your GPS so you don't need to mess about with flux gates. I know, but unless you use DGPS it's unreliable at low velocities. At least when you're rolling or standing still you'd see the map rotate unmotivatedly, which is annoying. > to collect the terrain info yourself. There is already enough work to do. > No need to create more. That's why I said it was wacko. You can purchase satellite maps with really decent resolution as well. > BTW, does anyone know of any reasonable speech recognition software that I could mention ears, but you said 'reasonable' ;) Speech synthesis solutions are very well done, though. > runs on Linux? I don't think that a keyboard will be too useful in the > cockpit. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 19 16:54:30 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA00198 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:54:30 +0100 Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA00161 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:54:19 +0100 Received: from jkugler (209-142-6-202.stk.inreach.net [209.142.6.202]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id HAA22123 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:42:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990319075027.007a9210@mail.inreach.com> X-Sender: jkugler@mail.inreach.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:50:27 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: "Joshua J. Kugler" Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Has anyone seen anyprices for IBM's new flash-card size 340MB HD? It's designed for use in cameras, etc., so it should have good shock absorbtion, and 340MB is a lot of data for a wearable. j----- k----- At 09:20 AM 3/19/99 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Brian Lloyd wrote: > >> I also believe that rotating media will probably work if you mount it on >> your person. The human body is a pretty good shock absorber ... > > > >My discman doesn't seem to think so... > >Groeten, - Jacco > >-- >Think about it: | In Real Life: Jacco van Schaik >If the wheel had never been | Mail me at: jacco@nlr.nl >reinvented, we'd still be | Spam bait: postmaster@localhost >driving on logs... | See also http://www.nlr.nl/NARSIM.html > >- >Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ >To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body >of a mail message to . > > Joshua Kugler Computer Technician Hunt Foods Co. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 22 16:56:08 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA10717 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:56:08 +0100 Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA10671 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:58 +0100 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:55:57 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: digest test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, I've now set up digesting (I hope), but have no idea whether a digest will be made or not... Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control of your data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 22 17:10:17 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA17936 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:10:17 +0100 Received: from exchg-gw.noblestar.com ([206.138.153.112]) by humbolt.nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17882 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 17:10:08 +0100 Received: by exchg-gw.noblestar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:06:21 -0500 Message-ID: <99805B014A26D211BC3100A0C9B72CB862C8A4@exchange-va.noblestar.com> From: "Fox, Dan" To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: RE: digest test Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:08:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Well, I can report that it is possible to subscribe to linux-aviation-digest at majordomo.nl.linux.org. I'll stay subbed here until I get one or 2 digests. Rik, thanks much for all your work. --dan fox > ---------- > From: Rik van Riel[SMTP:riel@nl.linux.org] > Reply To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Sent: Monday, March 22, 1999 3:55 PM > To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Subject: digest test > > Hi, > > I've now set up digesting (I hope), but have no idea > whether a digest will be made or not... > > Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control of your data. > +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | > | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | > +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > - > Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ > To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body > of a mail message to . > - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 22 23:28:10 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id XAA30010 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:28:10 +0100 Received: from max.phys.uu.nl (max.phys.uu.nl [131.211.32.73]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29965 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:27:58 +0100 Received: from mirkwood.dummy.home (riel@anx1p7.phys.uu.nl [131.211.33.96]) by max.phys.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/hjm) with ESMTP id XAA02720 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:27:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by mirkwood.dummy.home (8.9.0/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA28687 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:27:37 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: mirkwood.dummy.home: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:27:37 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: digest test Message-ID: X-Search-Engine-Bait: http://humbolt.nl.linux.org/ X-My-Own-Server: http://www.nl.linux.org/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org please ignore Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control of your data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 22 23:37:05 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id XAA06521 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:37:05 +0100 Received: from max.phys.uu.nl (max.phys.uu.nl [131.211.32.73]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06296; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:46 +0100 Received: from mirkwood.dummy.home (root@anx1p7.phys.uu.nl [131.211.33.96]) by max.phys.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/hjm) with ESMTP id XAA15353; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by mirkwood.dummy.home (8.9.0/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA28831; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:09 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: mirkwood.dummy.home: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:35:09 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@mirkwood.dummy.home To: Linux Future cc: kernel-doc@nl.linux.org, linux-legal@nl.linux.org, linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: anti-spam Message-ID: X-Search-Engine-Bait: http://humbolt.nl.linux.org/ X-My-Own-Server: http://www.nl.linux.org/ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, following up to the spam messages we got on the lists today, I have installed and activated the RBL spam filtering system. It's not perfect, but it should catch some of the spam... Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control of your data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 23 00:56:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id AAA19558 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:56:12 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19463 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:55:48 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00160 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990322155239.00965530@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:52:39 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990319075027.007a9210@mail.inreach.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 07:50 AM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >Has anyone seen anyprices for IBM's new flash-card size 340MB HD? It's >designed for use in cameras, etc., so it should have good shock absorbtion, >and 340MB is a lot of data for a wearable. Well, I went ahead and ordered a ViA-II from Liquid Image along with their M-1 display. BTW, it comes with a 3.4GB internal HD. They seem to be having good luck with the drive that they use. We'll see if it works out in the air. Since I was in Minneapolis for the IETF meeting and I was flying my own plane, I took the opportunity to visit VIA, Inc., and meet the people who make the ViA-II. I was quite impressed. It is a bit pricy but, by the time you get all the PC-104 boards together to do the same thing and then get them packaged so you can wear them, I bet the ViA-II will begin to look pretty reasonable. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 23 00:56:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id AAA19559 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:56:12 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19462 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:55:48 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00156 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990322154842.009d24c0@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:48:42 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <14066.26344.705814.332077@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> References: <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 04:06 PM 3/19/99 +0100, you wrote: >Brian Lloyd writes: > > > Well, they don't come with anything since you have to build the system > > yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see > >Of course, that the cheapest way to do it! > > > Well, which is more important to you, magnetic heading or magnetic course > > (track)? If you are going somewhere, course is probably more useful and it > > comes out of your GPS so you don't need to mess about with flux gates. > >I know, but unless you use DGPS it's unreliable at low velocities. At >least when you're rolling or standing still you'd see the map rotate >unmotivatedly, which is annoying. Most GPS receivers damp their heading output for that reason if you are moving so slowly that the track is swamped by SA "noise." > > to collect the terrain info yourself. There is already enough work to do. > > No need to create more. > >That's why I said it was wacko. You can purchase satellite maps with >really decent resolution as well. > > > BTW, does anyone know of any reasonable speech recognition software that > >I could mention ears, but you said 'reasonable' ;) Speech synthesis >solutions are very well done, though. I take speech synthesis for granted these days. No, I really need pointers to speech recognition software that runs on Linux. I will even dispense with the term "reasonable" if it will get me more pointers. Thanks. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 23 00:56:16 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id AAA19573 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:56:16 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19469 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 00:55:51 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00153 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:55:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990322154512.009c8210@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:45:12 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <36F2563F.3076B9D8@mitre.org> References: <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 08:50 AM 3/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >Brian Lloyd wrote: >... >> yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see >> http://www.liquidimage.com and http://www.flexipc.com/Webpages/index.html. >> This seems to be what is real right now. > >Which link on the http://www.liquidimage.com should one follow to see >info on a wearable based on COTS components? Click on the graphic at the top of the page that offers "a Free M-1 Display". Basically if you buy the ViA-II wearable computer from them, they include one of their M-1 head-mounted displays gratis. I talked with them and they are very flexible. Seems that they will cusomize their small interface box to bring out any of the signals on the ViA's 60-pin docking-bay connector that you might want. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Tue Mar 23 01:13:46 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id BAA11251 for linux-aviation-list; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:13:46 +0100 Received: from mail.inreach.com (pager.inreach.com [209.142.0.209]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11248 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 01:13:37 +0100 Received: from jkugler (209-142-4-148.stk.inreach.net [209.142.4.148]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id QAA04927 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:01:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990322161251.007a79b0@mail.inreach.com> X-Sender: jkugler@mail.inreach.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 16:12:51 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: "Joshua J. Kugler" Subject: Re: flash drives for mobile Linux & stuff In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990322154842.009d24c0@158.222.8.12> References: <14066.26344.705814.332077@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> <199903180830.AAA01603@netcom18.netcom.com> <36F01D09.6D61F634@cssgroup.com> <14064.55928.882226.53319@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> <3.0.6.32.19990318141521.0099b760@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org There is a program called kvoicecontrol that is part of the KDE project. It is for command entry. Never used it, you might want to check it out. You can find it at: http://www.kde.org/applications.html j----- k----- At 03:48 PM 3/22/99 -0800, you wrote: >At 04:06 PM 3/19/99 +0100, you wrote: >>Brian Lloyd writes: >> >> > Well, they don't come with anything since you have to build the system >> > yourself. If you are looking for a wearable based on COTS components, see >> >>Of course, that the cheapest way to do it! >> >> > Well, which is more important to you, magnetic heading or magnetic course >> > (track)? If you are going somewhere, course is probably more useful >and it >> > comes out of your GPS so you don't need to mess about with flux gates. >> >>I know, but unless you use DGPS it's unreliable at low velocities. At >>least when you're rolling or standing still you'd see the map rotate >>unmotivatedly, which is annoying. > >Most GPS receivers damp their heading output for that reason if you are >moving so slowly that the track is swamped by SA "noise." > >> > to collect the terrain info yourself. There is already enough work to do. >> > No need to create more. >> >>That's why I said it was wacko. You can purchase satellite maps with >>really decent resolution as well. >> >> > BTW, does anyone know of any reasonable speech recognition software that >> >>I could mention ears, but you said 'reasonable' ;) Speech synthesis >>solutions are very well done, though. > >I take speech synthesis for granted these days. No, I really need pointers >to speech recognition software that runs on Linux. I will even dispense >with the term "reasonable" if it will get me more pointers. Thanks. > > >Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies >brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 >http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 >+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- > >- >Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ >To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body >of a mail message to . > > Joshua Kugler Computer Technician Hunt Foods Co. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 24 23:33:21 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id XAA09429 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:33:21 +0100 Received: from netcom6.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom6.netcom.com [192.100.81.114]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09424 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:33:06 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id OAA23010 for linux-aviation@mail.nl.linux.org; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:32:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:32:36 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? Message-ID: <19990324143236.A21401@netcom6.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Wed Mar 24 14:12:06 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org I've been getting inquiries from users that live outside of the USA if there are any plans for providing fplan compatible databases (airport and navaid) for areas outside the USA. The answer is yes, but I'm beginning to wonder if it will be possible. Just to set the record straight, the fplan airport and navaid database for the USA is derived from the database from the National Flight Data Center. I've seen other FAA databases, but to the best of my knowledge, the NFDC is the best bet (they are given as the point of contact for reporting errors. For example, see the inside of the front cover of one of the green colored Airport, Facility Guide). The NFDC web site is at http://www.tgf.tc.faa.gov/nfdc/index.html I was under the impression that the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) distributed airport and navaid data for other countries. However, I have surfed all through their web site and have not found anything. I know you can buy it from Jeppesen and other vendors, but I'd be willing to bet my pilot certificate that one can't legally redistribute that data. It might be legal for someone who has purchased the data to use it with other software packages such as fplan. (If anyone has a copy of such a license agreement, please let us know). But, this would be an expensive proposition for users, and it's highly likely you wouldn't get ANY help from the vendors in the way of information needed to read it. I would prefer a public domain source for this information, but I'm beginning to get discouraged. Any ideas???? Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | The box said; "requires Windows NT -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | 4.0 or better", so I installed Linux. o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 24 23:45:31 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id XAA25237 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:45:31 +0100 Received: from BC.net (Jade.BC.net [128.189.4.1]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25109 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:45:22 +0100 Received: from tutankhamen.creo.com (tutankhamen.creo.bc.ca [204.174.12.17]) by jade.bc.net [128.189.4.1] (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23856 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.creo.com by tutankhamen.creo.com via smtpd (for Jade.BC.net [128.189.4.1]) with SMTP; 24 Mar 1999 22:45:09 UT Received: from msgbld1bh.creo.com (msgbld1bh.creo.bc.ca [204.174.12.115]) by relay.creo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58829U300L100S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:44:33 -0800 Received: by msgbld1bh.creo.bc.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:44:55 -0800 Message-ID: From: Rob Prior To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: RE: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:46:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Here's a site in Canada where a small group of people got together to punch in the data from the Canadian Flight Supplement. Included are Latitude, Longitude, Airport Name, Airport Identifier, and (I think) Airport Elevation. No radio information, sorry. Maybe in some future push... 8-) http://ardsley.ivey.uwo.ca/cfs/ Since the data was copied from the CFS by hand, i'm not sure if there are any copyright considerations in redistributing it... It would certainly be next to impossible to prove the origin of the info, though. It's been a while since I looked at the raw database, so i'm not sure if they have navaid information as well in there. I just downloaded the local airports into my GPS-III and started flying... 8-) Blue Skies, Rob Prior, PPSEL rprior@creo.com -----Original Message----- From: John Peterson [mailto:jaypee@netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 2:33 PM To: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? I've been getting inquiries from users that live outside of the USA if there are any plans for providing fplan compatible databases (airport and navaid) for areas outside the USA. The answer is yes, but I'm beginning to wonder if it will be possible. Just to set the record straight, the fplan airport and navaid database for the USA is derived from the database from the National Flight Data Center. I've seen other FAA databases, but to the best of my knowledge, the NFDC is the best bet (they are given as the point of contact for reporting errors. For example, see the inside of the front cover of one of the green colored Airport, Facility Guide). The NFDC web site is at http://www.tgf.tc.faa.gov/nfdc/index.html I was under the impression that the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) distributed airport and navaid data for other countries. However, I have surfed all through their web site and have not found anything. I know you can buy it from Jeppesen and other vendors, but I'd be willing to bet my pilot certificate that one can't legally redistribute that data. It might be legal for someone who has purchased the data to use it with other software packages such as fplan. (If anyone has a copy of such a license agreement, please let us know). But, this would be an expensive proposition for users, and it's highly likely you wouldn't get ANY help from the vendors in the way of information needed to read it. I would prefer a public domain source for this information, but I'm beginning to get discouraged. Any ideas???? Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | The box said; "requires Windows NT -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | 4.0 or better", so I installed Linux. o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 11:07:06 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id LAA18349 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:07:06 +0100 Received: from orpheus.amdahl.com (orpheus.amdahl.com [159.199.101.3]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18198 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:06:48 +0100 Received: from minerva.amdahl.com([129.212.33.25]) (2288 bytes) by orpheus.amdahl.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:match-mx-hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:06:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.102 1998-Aug-2 #1 built 1998-Aug-14) Received: from amdahl.com by minerva.amdahl.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m10Q711-0007HUC; Thu, 25 Mar 99 02:05 PST Message-ID: <36FA0C28.ED7F4497@amdahl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:12:56 +0000 From: Sid Boyce Organization: amdahl.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.4 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org CC: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? References: <19990324143236.A21401@netcom6.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John Peterson wrote: > > I've been getting inquiries from users that live outside of the USA > if there are any plans for providing fplan compatible databases (airport > and navaid) for areas outside the USA. The answer is yes, but I'm > beginning to wonder if it will be possible. > There is nothing available to download as far as I know, I've searched extensively. Looking at the World file the author of "icao" generated for Germany, it would be a major task to write such files and maintain them. One of our club members had his Garmin GPS90 reprogrammed to include a database for France in addition to the standard UK database that comes pre-installed. I know he sent it away to be done, but I shall have to check to find out if the databases can be purchased and what format they may be in. I have never seen anything other than plug-ins for Flight-Sim advertised, whether they are in readable format or no I have yet to find out. I tried to get gpsd up and running, but it didn't understand what a GPS90 was and I never got back to playing with it. I was wondering if gpsd/gpsclient could be used to suck the databases down to Linux or whether it could only get at programmed-in route information for download and upload. Regards ----------------------- -- ... Sid Boyce (G3VBV)...Amdahl(Europe)...44-121 422 0375 Any opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corporation. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 11:07:09 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id LAA18371 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:07:09 +0100 Received: from orpheus.amdahl.com (orpheus.amdahl.com [159.199.101.3]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18202 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:06:50 +0100 Received: from minerva.amdahl.com([129.212.33.25]) (2288 bytes) by orpheus.amdahl.com via sendmail with P:smtp/R:match-mx-hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 02:06:47 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.102 1998-Aug-2 #1 built 1998-Aug-14) Received: from amdahl.com by minerva.amdahl.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m10Q711-0007HUC; Thu, 25 Mar 99 02:05 PST Message-ID: <36FA0C28.ED7F4497@amdahl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:12:56 +0000 From: Sid Boyce Organization: amdahl.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.4 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org CC: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? References: <19990324143236.A21401@netcom6.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John Peterson wrote: > > I've been getting inquiries from users that live outside of the USA > if there are any plans for providing fplan compatible databases (airport > and navaid) for areas outside the USA. The answer is yes, but I'm > beginning to wonder if it will be possible. > There is nothing available to download as far as I know, I've searched extensively. Looking at the World file the author of "icao" generated for Germany, it would be a major task to write such files and maintain them. One of our club members had his Garmin GPS90 reprogrammed to include a database for France in addition to the standard UK database that comes pre-installed. I know he sent it away to be done, but I shall have to check to find out if the databases can be purchased and what format they may be in. I have never seen anything other than plug-ins for Flight-Sim advertised, whether they are in readable format or no I have yet to find out. I tried to get gpsd up and running, but it didn't understand what a GPS90 was and I never got back to playing with it. I was wondering if gpsd/gpsclient could be used to suck the databases down to Linux or whether it could only get at programmed-in route information for download and upload. Regards ----------------------- -- ... Sid Boyce (G3VBV)...Amdahl(Europe)...44-121 422 0375 Any opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Amdahl Corporation. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 14:53:49 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id OAA26474 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:53:49 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net (sys32.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.32]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26366 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:53:39 +0100 Received: from blackbird.wt.net (216-119-135-49.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.49]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA24557 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:56:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> From: "Keith Brown" To: Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:46:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.0810.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0810.800 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Just to set the record straight, the fplan airport and navaid database >for the USA is derived from the database from the National Flight Data >Center. I've seen other FAA databases, but to the best of my knowledge, >the NFDC is the best bet (they are given as the point of contact for >reporting errors. For example, see the inside of the front cover of one >of the green colored Airport, Facility Guide). The NFDC web site is at > > http://www.tgf.tc.faa.gov/nfdc/index.html This is *not* the NFDC website, and the data is almost a year out of date. This is an FAA research facility website that uses NFDC data for simulations and they make the data available on the site, but it isn't complete or current. NFDC and/or NASA *used* to have plans to offer current data on line, but they shelved it. AFAIK, NFDC only supplies the data on 9-track magnetic tape and you have to pay for it. Also, you have to either find a friend with a mainframe :-) or pay someone to transfer the data from the tape to media you can use. You might want to check with Paul Santos, the webmaster at http://www.airnav.com He somehow gets the current data and puts it in a searchable database on the site. Ask him how he gets the data. > I was under the impression that the ICAO (International Civil >Aviation Organization) distributed airport and navaid data for other >countries. However, I have surfed all through their web site and have >not found anything. ICAO is a standards organization and not regulatory. Membership is voluntary, and it's up to the individual national agencies to regulate and enforce standards within their airspace and distribute system information to the user or third-party publishers. >I know you can buy it from Jeppesen and other >vendors, but I'd be willing to bet my pilot certificate that one can't >legally redistribute that data. It might be legal for someone who has >purchased the data to use it with other software packages such as >fplan. (If anyone has a copy of such a license agreement, please let us >know). But, this would be an expensive proposition for users, and it's >highly likely you wouldn't get ANY help from the vendors in the way of >information needed to read it. I would prefer a public domain source >for this information, but I'm beginning to get discouraged. Any >ideas???? IMHO, you're out of luck. Think about the massive amount of data involved and the effort required to keep it correct and up to date. You're just not going to get that for free. If you wanted to write a flight planner that uses Jeppesen for example, you have two choices: a) write a commercial product and get a license deal to use NavData, which of course means including this cost in the price of the product b) write a free product and somehow wrangle a deal from Jeppesen to make NavData available to users of the program on a subscription basis (of course you'd have to get them to give you a sample to develop with in the meantime) In fact now that I think about it, a variation on b) might not be a bad idea. Linux is worldwide, Jeppesen NavData does cover much of the world doesn't it? If someone were to get an opensource (tm) company together to develop flight planning and/or moving map type stuff for Linux, they could give away the software which allows the user to input his own data, but charge for data which they distribute on CD-ROMS burned from data recieved from Jeppesen. That way, all Jeppesen has to do is provide one copy of the data and enter into a royalty agreement with the company allowing them to resell the data. Jeppesen is happy because they've got a new source of revenue, the software company is happy because they're making money as the only player in a rapidly growing market, and the user gets *much* cheaper (and reliable) software, since he is only paying for the data, and then only if he wants to. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 14:59:30 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id OAA29968 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:59:30 +0100 Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29965 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:59:22 +0100 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 14:59:22 +0100 (CET) From: Rik van Riel To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: digest test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Hi, there was a bit of config trouble with the digest, but I think I may have solved it now. This message should trigger the digest... Rik -- Open Source: you deserve to be in control of your data. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Linux Memory Management site: http://humbolt.geo.uu.nl/Linux-MM/ | | Nederlandse Linux documentatie: http://www.nl.linux.org/ | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 16:10:49 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id QAA02339 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:10:49 +0100 Received: from wiley.infoplane.com (root@[204.120.151.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02336 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:10:40 +0100 Received: from sledge.infoplane.com (curt@sledge.infoplane.com [204.120.151.21]) by wiley.infoplane.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA27490 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:10:15 -0600 Received: (from curt@localhost) by sledge.infoplane.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) id JAA02692; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:10:34 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14074.20970.905128.128834@sledge.infoplane.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 09:10:34 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? In-Reply-To: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> References: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.61 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Keith Brown writes: > IMHO, you're out of luck. Think about the massive amount of data involved > and the effort required to keep it correct and up to date. You're just not > going to get that for free. If you wanted to write a flight planner that > uses Jeppesen for example, you have two choices: > > a) write a commercial product and get a license deal to use NavData, > which of course means including this cost in the price of the > product > b) write a free product and somehow wrangle a deal from > Jeppesen to make NavData available to users of the program on a > subscription basis (of course you'd have to get them to give you a > sample to develop with in the meantime) Here's a possible c) Note this data is being continually added to and updated, but the data sources are sometimes dubious so it is definitely for simulation purposes and not for real flight planning. Ummmm, hmmmm, I can't find the url at this second. If someone's actually interested I can look harder and/or email a recent copy. Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. curt@me.umn.edu http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt Try Linux! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 17:12:38 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id RAA26184 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:12:38 +0100 Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26098 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:12:30 +0100 Received: from jkugler (209-142-4-104.stk.inreach.net [209.142.4.104]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id IAA06560 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:00:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990325081042.007af940@mail.inreach.com> X-Sender: jkugler@mail.inreach.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:10:42 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: "Joshua J. Kugler" Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? In-Reply-To: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 07:46 AM 3/25/99 -0600, you wrote: >Jeppesen is happy because they've got a new source of >revenue, the software company is happy because they're making money as the >only player in a rapidly growing market, and the user gets *much* cheaper >(and reliable) software, since he is only paying for the data, and then only >if he wants to. I LIKE it, I LIKE it! :) j----- k----- Joshua Kugler Computer Technician Hunt Foods Co. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 20:12:12 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id UAA29632 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:12:12 +0100 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29590 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 20:11:58 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id LAA03674 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:11:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:11:47 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Airport and Navaid data for countries other than the US? Message-ID: <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> References: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net>; from Keith Brown on Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:46:08AM -0600 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Thu Mar 25 10:17:52 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 07:46:08AM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > > Just to set the record straight, the fplan airport and navaid database > >for the USA is derived from the database from the National Flight Data > >Center. I've seen other FAA databases, but to the best of my knowledge, > >the NFDC is the best bet (they are given as the point of contact for > >reporting errors. For example, see the inside of the front cover of one > >of the green colored Airport, Facility Guide). The NFDC web site is at > > > > http://www.tgf.tc.faa.gov/nfdc/index.html > > This is *not* the NFDC website, and the data is almost a year out of date. > This is an FAA research facility website that uses NFDC data for simulations > and they make the data available on the site, but it isn't complete or > current. NFDC and/or NASA *used* to have plans to offer current data on > line, but they shelved it. AFAIK, NFDC only supplies the data on 9-track > magnetic tape and you have to pay for it. Also, you have to either find a > friend with a mainframe :-) or pay someone to transfer the data from the > tape to media you can use. You might want to check with Paul Santos, the > webmaster at > http://www.airnav.com > He somehow gets the current data and puts it in a searchable database on the > site. Ask him how he gets the data. > Just to clarify, I was not implying that this data is an "official product" of the NFDC. The web page makes this very clear, it states: "<<<<< FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY -- NOT CERTIFIED FOR NAVIGATION >>>>>" It's also true that the data is almost a year old. On the other hand, it is still the best public source for this information that I have seen so far. There have been some updates in the past, roughly every 6-9 months. On one occassion, I discovered a small problem with one of the data fields, and they promptly corrected the files when I sent them e-mail describing the problem. It probably goes without saying, but having up to date navigational information is really a "mission critical" issue (so I'll say it anyway). More than one fatal accident has occured as a result of bad or missing data. Here are a couple interesting URLs for you all. The first one has some nice links to other aviation charting resources, and the second speaks of a law suit filed against Jeppesen, that relates to data. http://www.webcom.com/skygod/charting/home.html http://www.webcom.com/skygod/charting/dmalia.html -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, because -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | a PC is a terrible thing to waste! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Thu Mar 25 22:40:42 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id WAA31428 for linux-aviation-list; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:40:42 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA31425 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 22:40:33 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA22987 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:40:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 13:37:46 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Jeppesen database In-Reply-To: <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> References: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Dave Bridgham (also on this list) and I purchased the sample data kit from Jeppesen for their database. This kit contains a rather large book of all the record formats and sample data of all the record types on floppy. It is enough to allow you to write and test software that will accept the Jeppesen data as input. As I recall, it was about $150(US) for the kit. It was very enlightening. The most obvious thing is that the format is clearly intended for mainframe systems. Heck, it looks like input data for a COBOL program (which is probably what it is). There is a *LOT* of data available, a lot more than I would have expected. So, for people planning to play in this area, it might be worthwhile to play with the Jeppesen data just to get a feel for its value. Sometimes it is just worth it to buy clean data than to scrounge for dirty stuff and then have to go to all the trouble to clean it up. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 01:08:27 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id BAA04330 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:08:27 +0100 Received: from mail.inreach.com (pager.inreach.com [209.142.0.209]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04264 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:08:18 +0100 Received: from jkugler (209-142-7-113.stk.inreach.net [209.142.7.113]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id PAA27633 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 15:56:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990325160449.007b5290@mail.inreach.com> X-Sender: jkugler@mail.inreach.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:04:49 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: "Joshua J. Kugler" Subject: Re: Jeppesen database In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> References: <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org A small plug for Perl (currently my favorite language :)... Even if the planning software was written in C with a GTK/Qt/Whatever front end, a Perl script (using DBI) would be a great took to import the data into a local database. OR, there are ways of imbedding perl in a C program, that could be done as well. It seems to me that Perl would be the easiest to use for processing/import that data. Hey, there might already be a Perl module for importing COBAL data. Hope that sparks some ideas. j----- k----- (Shooting from the hip) At 01:37 PM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: >Dave Bridgham (also on this list) and I purchased the >sample data kit from Jeppesen for their database. This kit contains a >rather large book of all the record formats and sample data of all the >record types on floppy. It is enough to allow you to write and test >software that will accept the Jeppesen data as input. As I recall, it was >about $150(US) for the kit. > >It was very enlightening. The most obvious thing is that the format is >clearly intended for mainframe systems. Heck, it looks like input data for >a COBOL program (which is probably what it is). There is a *LOT* of data >available, a lot more than I would have expected. > >So, for people planning to play in this area, it might be worthwhile to >play with the Jeppesen data just to get a feel for its value. Sometimes it >is just worth it to buy clean data than to scrounge for dirty stuff and >then have to go to all the trouble to clean it up. > > >Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies >brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 >http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 >+1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- > >- >Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ >To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body >of a mail message to . > > Joshua Kugler Computer Technician Hunt Foods Co. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 01:16:59 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id BAA14239 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:16:59 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14019 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 01:16:50 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA24433 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:16:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990325161359.008fe8f0@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 16:13:59 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Jeppesen database In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990325160449.007b5290@mail.inreach.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 04:04 PM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: >A small plug for Perl (currently my favorite language :)... > >Even if the planning software was written in C with a GTK/Qt/Whatever front >end, a Perl script (using DBI) would be a great took to import the data >into a local database. OR, there are ways of imbedding perl in a C >program, that could be done as well. It seems to me that Perl would be the >easiest to use for processing/import that data. Hey, there might already >be a Perl module for importing COBAL data. We tend to work in Java. PERL is great for string manipulation but I am not sure it is an advantage for processing fixed-length records where byte offsets define the element boundaries. How many people are interested in using Java? We opted for it because it pretty much eliminated our dependence on a particular platform (as long as the platform supports Java, of course). Certainly PERL is portable as well but IMHO it is not well suited to large scale development. C is not quite as portable. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 02:27:59 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id CAA14418 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:27:59 +0100 Received: from wmailz.wt.net (sys48.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.48]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA14308 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:27:50 +0100 Received: from wt.net (sys48.hou.wt.net [205.230.159.48]) by wmailz.wt.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28397 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:08:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bahalana@wt.net) From: "Keith Brown" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 19:08:58 +600 Subject: Re: Jeppesen database X-Mailer: DMailWeb Web to Mail Gateway 2.0n, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <36fade2a.6eea.0@wt.net> X-User-Info: 209.30.72.95 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org >How many people are interested in using Java? We opted for it because it >pretty much eliminated our dependence on a particular platform (as long as >the platform supports Java, of course). Certainly PERL is portable as well >but IMHO it is not well suited to large scale development. C is not quite >as portable. Not to start a religious or flame war, but I've tried several large applications written in Java, and I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore. They're slower than molasses in the winter on my P200 (which used to be fast), and even with my 64MB of RAM (which used to be a lot), they take all of that and want more. On both Windows and Linux. C/C++ is almost as portable. As long as you decouple the GUI from the core functionality and don't use any OS specific file handling or other system calls, it isn't all *that* hard. Sure, it's more work, but I think it's worth it on all other levels. Besides, there are more and more good cross-platform GUI kits that make that easier to do now (open source, too). If you start out designing the program to be portable, it will stay that way. Of course, I've never worked on a large cross-platform project, so take what I say with a grain of salt :-). - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 02:53:58 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id CAA13695 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:53:58 +0100 Received: from netcom6.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom6.netcom.com [192.100.81.114]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA13639 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 02:53:49 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom6.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id RAA25415 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:53:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 17:53:39 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Jeppesen database Message-ID: <19990325175339.A23389@netcom6.netcom.com> References: <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12>; from Brian Lloyd on Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 01:37:46PM -0800 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Thu Mar 25 17:36:16 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 01:37:46PM -0800, Brian Lloyd wrote: > Dave Bridgham (also on this list) and I purchased the > sample data kit from Jeppesen for their database. This kit contains a > rather large book of all the record formats and sample data of all the > record types on floppy. It is enough to allow you to write and test > software that will accept the Jeppesen data as input. As I recall, it was > about $150(US) for the kit. > Very interesting. I must say I'm really quite surprised that they take such an "open" attitude towards reading the data. Not a slam on Jeppesen in any way, but it seems like every company on earth has tried to restrict the use of their products in every *possible* legal and technical way (Win Printers and Win Modems for example, to these companies the concept of "fair use" means "no use). Very refreshing really... As far as conversion software goes, I wrote avdbtools (the package used to create the fplan databases) in plain ol' C. I know people have their favorites, but C worked just fine. The bulk of it came together in just a couple evenings. -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, because -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | a PC is a terrible thing to waste! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 07:14:56 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id HAA00932 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:14:56 +0100 Received: from kilgore.froghouse.org (kilgore.froghouse.org [206.58.86.34]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00887 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:14:45 +0100 Received: from pahi.froghouse.org (pahi.froghouse.org [206.58.86.38]) by kilgore.froghouse.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA32624 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:15:08 -0700 Message-Id: <199903260615.XAA32624@kilgore.froghouse.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:17:21 -0700 (MST) From: dab@froghouse.org Subject: Re: Jeppesen database To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org In-Reply-To: <19990325175339.A23389@netcom6.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On 25 Mar, John Peterson wrote: > Very interesting. I must say I'm really quite surprised that they > take such an "open" attitude towards reading the data. Not a slam on > Jeppesen in any way, but it seems like every company on earth has > tried to restrict the use of their products in every *possible* > legal and technical way (Win Printers and Win Modems for example, to > these companies the concept of "fair use" means "no use). Very > refreshing really... It shouldn't be surprising. It's certainly in Jeppesen's interest to help people be able to use their data; they make money by selling that data. The more companies who sell devices that use Jepp data, the more customers Jepp has. Now they don't give this stuff away and they don't give you a sample database that's useful for anything. It just has some of every record type so you can test your parsing software. We asked about getting a complete, out of date copy of their data so we could make sure our data structures and so forth were up to the task and they got a lot more cagey though it wasn't totally out of the question. The idea of preventing people from using your product by keeping technical information secret is just daft. I know companies do it all the time; it's still bonkers. Jeppesen has a de-facto monopoly on reliable aviation nav data. There is no other source as the FAA data is supposed to be riddled with errors. They can best keep their position by making sure there's no reason to create any competition so they make sure any who want can use their data. At a price of course. > As far as conversion software goes, I wrote avdbtools (the package > used to create the fplan databases) in plain ol' C. I know people > have their favorites, but C worked just fine. The bulk of it came > together in just a couple evenings. The Jepp data is in a bit more complex format I suspect. Maybe I'm just slow but in the couple of evening's work I've put in so far I've only gotten a tiny ways into the formats. I can partially parse the VOR records. The ARINC 424 spec is some 250 pages (and not the clearest writing I've ever encountered) plus maybe another 40 pages of Jeppesen extensions. -Dave - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 16:04:58 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id QAA04547 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:04:58 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn81.southwind.net [206.53.97.101]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04508 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:04:44 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA24054 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:04:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FBA17F.C93D2895@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:02:23 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Jeppesen database References: <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <3.0.6.32.19990325160449.007b5290@mail.inreach.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org "Joshua J. Kugler" wrote: > > A small plug for Perl (currently my favorite language :)... > > Even if the planning software was written in C with a GTK/Qt/Whatever front > end, a Perl script (using DBI) would be a great took to import the data > into a local database. OR, there are ways of imbedding perl in a C > program, that could be done as well. It seems to me that Perl would be the > easiest to use for processing/import that data. Hey, there might already > be a Perl module for importing COBAL data. > Yea I like Perl a lot, but I think Java JDBC is a bit better and easier to use than the Perl database interfaces... Of course you need to know a bit of SQL to make it work... -= Bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 17:47:44 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id RAA31475 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:47:44 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn81.southwind.net [206.53.97.101]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA31472 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 17:47:35 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA06126 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:47:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FBB98C.91AF00BF@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 16:45:00 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Jeppesen database References: <36fade2a.6eea.0@wt.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Keith Brown wrote: > > >How many people are interested in using Java? We opted for it because it > >pretty much eliminated our dependence on a particular platform (as long as > > >the platform supports Java, of course). Certainly PERL is portable as well > > >but IMHO it is not well suited to large scale development. C is not quite > > >as portable. > > Not to start a religious or flame war, but I've tried several large applications > written in Java, and I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore. They're slower than molasses > in the winter on my P200 (which used to be fast), and even with my 64MB of RAM > (which used to be a lot), they take all of that and want more. On both Windows > and Linux. > > C/C++ is almost as portable. As long as you decouple the GUI from the core functionality > and don't use any OS specific file handling or other system calls, it isn't > all *that* hard. Sure, it's more work, but I think it's worth it on all other > levels. Besides, there are more and more good cross-platform GUI kits that make > that easier to do now (open source, too). If you start out designing the program > to be portable, it will stay that way. > > Of course, I've never worked on a large cross-platform project, so take what > I say with a grain of salt :-). You got it right... Java is a slow mamath that can bring the best machine to a crawl, but it's portable. I would not want to write some heavy hitting image processing code in java. However, for user interfaces there is nothing like it for portabliity and usually you don't need to be too speedy with a UI. Despite the speed and resource problems, I think Java is worth it for portability unless you are really running in very limited situations or where you are doing a lot of processing on data.. (So don't write your flight simulator in Java, unless you have one heck of a machine.) I think the speed and resource useage problems will be worked on over time and the problems that cannot be solved will be less and less of a problem as hardware capibilities grow... (Shucks, I remember when a 386 DX 25 was a really fast machine that ran circles arround some mainframes of it's day... It is only a matter of time before Java's resource useage becomes a non-issue.) We've seen this resource issue with other languages, C, C++ for example Where resource hogs in their eairly days and assembly was the way to write small and fast programs.. Now days, C is considered a very efficient way of writing code... Java in time will be too. It just may be awhile before you write kernel code in Java... That's my thoughts... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 18:14:21 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id SAA06722 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:14:21 +0100 Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06689 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:14:12 +0100 Received: from jkugler (209-142-8-161.stk.inreach.net [209.142.8.161]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id JAA07769 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:01:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990326091308.007abb30@mail.inreach.com> X-Sender: jkugler@mail.inreach.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:13:08 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: "Joshua J. Kugler" Subject: Re: Jeppesen database In-Reply-To: <36FBA17F.C93D2895@cssgroup.com> References: <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <3.0.6.32.19990325160449.007b5290@mail.inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 03:02 PM 3/26/99 +0000, you wrote: >"Joshua J. Kugler" wrote: >>Hey, there might already be a Perl module for importing COBAL data. "COBAL"? And I've been in computers HOW long? :) How embarrassing. If I was paying attention, that would have been "COBOL." There, that's better. >Yea I like Perl a lot, but I think Java JDBC is a bit better and easier >to use than the Perl database interfaces... Of course you need to know >a bit of SQL to make it work... You need to know SQL for Perl/DBI too. It's basically an interface for sending SQL commands to an SQL server, and getting the results back. It really doesn't hide any query detail. j----- k----- Joshua Kugler Computer Technician Hunt Foods Co. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 18:42:49 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id SAA15567 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:42:49 +0100 Received: from tr2.com (jerry@tr2.com [204.156.129.163]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15308 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 18:42:40 +0100 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by tr2.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28221 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:42:56 -0800 From: Jerry Kaidor Message-Id: <199903261842.KAA28221@tr2.com> Subject: Re: Jeppesen database To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:42:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36FBB98C.91AF00BF@cssgroup.com> from "Bob Deep" at Mar 26, 99 04:45:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep wrote: > > > C/C++ is almost as portable. As long as you decouple the GUI from the core functionality > > and don't use any OS specific file handling or other system calls, it isn't > > all *that* hard. Sure, it's more work, but I think it's worth it on all other > > > > Of course, I've never worked on a large cross-platform project, so take what > > I say with a grain of salt :-). > > You got it right... Java is a slow mamath that can bring the best > machine to a crawl, but it's portable. I would not want to write some *** I'd vote for C. Remember, we're talking about Linux here. That means open source, and people being able to compile it on their own systems. So the portability features of Java are not needed. One of the nicest things about Linux is its efficiency, its ability to do useful stuff on slow, small machines. For example, I'm typing this on a telnet session into my old 486 box, which acts as a "central computer" and Internet server for the whole house. Keep it lean & mean, that's the Linux Way. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 21:24:30 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA21210 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:24:30 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21186 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:24:12 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA01810 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:24:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990326120637.00997c00@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:06:37 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Jeppesen database In-Reply-To: <19990325175339.A23389@netcom6.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <003f01be76c5$d6fa10e0$318777d8@wt.net> <19990325111146.A25481@netcom12.netcom.com> <3.0.6.32.19990325133746.00971100@158.222.8.12> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 05:53 PM 3/25/99 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, Mar 25, 1999 at 01:37:46PM -0800, Brian Lloyd wrote: >> Dave Bridgham (also on this list) and I purchased the >> sample data kit from Jeppesen for their database. This kit contains a >> rather large book of all the record formats and sample data of all the >> record types on floppy. It is enough to allow you to write and test >> software that will accept the Jeppesen data as input. As I recall, it was >> about $150(US) for the kit. >> > > Very interesting. I must say I'm really quite surprised that they >take such an "open" attitude towards reading the data. Not a slam on >Jeppesen in any way, but it seems like every company on earth has tried >to restrict the use of their products in every *possible* legal and >technical way (Win Printers and Win Modems for example, to these >companies the concept of "fair use" means "no use). Very refreshing >really... Well, if you consider that they are in the business of selling the data, I would imagine that they would want a representation that is as universal as possible. As I recall they do not want you selling their data unmodified. I think they want you to put it into a format unique to your application. OTOH, that makes sense if you are picking and choosing among the data elements for your particular application. > As far as conversion software goes, I wrote avdbtools (the package >used to create the fplan databases) in plain ol' C. I know people have >their favorites, but C worked just fine. The bulk of it came together >in just a couple evenings. I think C would be a good language for doing data conversions since you have the flexibility of interpreting the data any way you want to. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 21:24:39 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA21219 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:24:39 +0100 Received: from hal.lcp.livingston.com (hal.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.12]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21185 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:24:12 +0100 Received: from murray (murray.lcp.livingston.com [158.222.8.15]) by hal.lcp.livingston.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA01807 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:24:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> X-Sender: brian@158.222.8.12 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:03:30 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Java In-Reply-To: <36fade2a.6eea.0@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org At 07:08 PM 3/25/99 +600, you wrote: >Not to start a religious or flame war, but I've tried several large applications >written in Java, and I'm sorry, I won't do it anymore. They're slower than molasses >in the winter on my P200 (which used to be fast), and even with my 64MB of RAM >(which used to be a lot), they take all of that and want more. On both Windows >and Linux. We did a fair bit of benchmarking and found huge differences in the various VMs. Many of the reference VMs from Javasoft don't support JIT so they are slow. When you get a good JIT JVM that supports native threading on Solaris or NT, we were seeing performance on the order of 50%-70% the speed of the same thing coded in C when compiled with GCC. We wrote a very high performance RADIUS server in Java and demonstrated performance two orders of magnituded (yes, 100 times) better than anything anyone else had built. >C/C++ is almost as portable. As long as you decouple the GUI from the core functionality >and don't use any OS specific file handling or other system calls, it isn't >all *that* hard. Sure, it's more work, but I think it's worth it on all other >levels. Besides, there are more and more good cross-platform GUI kits that make >that easier to do now (open source, too). If you start out designing the program >to be portable, it will stay that way. We also found that code gets debugged more quickly in Java than in C. >Of course, I've never worked on a large cross-platform project, so take what >I say with a grain of salt :-). Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, you can do production work with it. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax O- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Fri Mar 26 21:44:40 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA11850 for linux-aviation-list; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:44:40 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn97.southwind.net [206.53.97.117]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11847 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 21:44:32 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA08504 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 14:44:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:42:11 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Java References: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > > Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different > platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the > language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, > you can do production work with it. Yea, you can.. At least I currently am... I see no real reason not to code any new application in Java if you meet the four following tests... 1. Your application does not need top computational performance in a small foot print.. 2. You can get a VM for the platform. 3. You don't need direct access to hardware that cannot be done yet in Java on your platform. 4. Learning costs of Java are too high. Of course, it's always a judgment call... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sat Mar 27 07:54:14 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id HAA12769 for linux-aviation-list; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:54:14 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net ([205.230.159.32]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12744 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:54:01 +0100 Received: from wt.net (216-119-135-96.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.96]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA11599 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 00:57:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FC7EBB.A0E9A2EA@wt.net> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:46:20 +0000 From: Keith Brown Organization: Homo Sapiens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Java References: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Bob Deep wrote: > > > > Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different > > platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the > > language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, > > you can do production work with it. > > Yea, you can.. At least I currently am... > > I see no real reason not to code any new application in Java if you meet > the four following tests... > > 1. Your application does not need top computational performance in a > small foot print.. > 2. You can get a VM for the platform. > 3. You don't need direct access to hardware that cannot be done yet in > Java on your platform. > 4. Learning costs of Java are too high. > > Of course, it's always a judgment call... Good points. What I "really meant to say" I guess, is that from my perspective as an end user give me a native app over Java all other things being equal. If I was running a heterogenous shop that needed a tool "now" that ran on everything, I would go with Java as well... Coincidentally, this very moment, I'm evaluating an experimental UML CASE tool written in Java called Argo/UML. Its free and opensource, and blows the doors off of any other CASE tool I've tried so far that was written in Java, some of which sell for several thousand dollars. It also has features that don't exist in other commercial tools. So far, performance hasn't been bad either. I'm very impressed. So you *can* write quality software with Java, but it still lacks that 'snap' you get with native object code. There are quite a few freeware and shareware flight planning tools for Windows, but not on Linux, so I don't see the point of concentrating on portability so much. That's mainly why I would favor native compiled code, no matter what the language. -- _ _ ___ __ ________________________________ | | (_)_ _ _ ___ __ |_ ) / \ | Keith Brown bahalana@wt.net |\ | |__| | ' \ || \ \ / / / | () | | http://web.wt.net/~bahalana |\ |____|_|_||_\_,_/_\_\ /___(_)__/ |________________________________|\ THE SOURCE IS OUT THERE.... \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sat Mar 27 19:51:24 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id TAA20410 for linux-aviation-list; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:51:24 +0100 Received: from netcom9.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20380 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 19:51:14 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom9.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id KAA27943 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:51:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 10:51:12 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Personal Java (was: Java) Message-ID: <19990327105112.A27233@netcom9.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com>; from Bob Deep on Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:42:11PM +0000 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Sat Mar 27 10:36:07 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:42:11PM +0000, Bob Deep wrote: > > > > > Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different > > platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the > > language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, > > you can do production work with it. > > Yea, you can.. At least I currently am... > > I see no real reason not to code any new application in Java if you meet > the four following tests... > > 1. Your application does not need top computational performance in a > small foot print.. > 2. You can get a VM for the platform. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Relatively speaking, I'm still a neophyte as far as Java goes. However, I have taken an interest in the language because of the portability aspect, Sun's vocal plans for using Java in the embedded market, and my own personal interest in handheld computers for aviation usage. Can someone summarize what is going on in the area of Personal Java on embedded devices? As far as I can tell, "not much" sums it up. Corel was talking about marketing a Personal Java based PDA which was apparently shelved a year ago or so. -- ___|___ John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most -(*)- mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | important operating system, and possibly o/ \o San Diego, CA U.S.A | program, of all time." - Billy Gates, 1987 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Sat Mar 27 21:32:02 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id VAA26192 for linux-aviation-list; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:32:02 +0100 Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26103 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 21:31:52 +0100 Received: from mail-out-3.tiac.net (mail-out-3.tiac.net [199.0.65.15]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA32018 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:31:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nhv@laserplot.com) Received: from nhv (p28.tc3.state.MA.tiac.com [206.119.30.29]) by mail-out-3.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08862 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:31:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nhv@laserplot.com) From: "Norman Vine" To: Subject: RE: Personal Java (was: Java) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 15:28:40 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be7890$67a45800$1d1e77ce@nhv> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 In-Reply-To: <19990327105112.A27233@netcom9.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Can someone summarize what is going on in the area of Personal Java >on embedded devices? As far as I can tell, "not much" sums it up. >Corel was talking about marketing a Personal Java based PDA which was >apparently shelved a year ago or so. > >-- With all this talk of Perl and Java and all I was biting my tongue. But I can not resist any longer :-) following snipped from http://www.concentric.net/~n9mtb/cq The flagship CQ Codeworks product is Pyrite, a Python library which provides high-level object-oriented access to Palm Computing platform handhelds and their data. also see ftp://ryeham.ee.ryerson.ca/pub/PalmOS/ Cheers Norman - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Mon Mar 29 16:37:18 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id QAA32745 for linux-aviation-list; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:37:18 +0200 Received: from cssgroup.com (isdn106.southwind.net [206.53.97.126]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA32742 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:37:05 +0200 Received: from cssgroup.com (babbage [192.168.10.2]) by cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA13851 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:36:31 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36FF8F70.26C8F2DA@cssgroup.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:34:24 +0000 From: Bob Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Personal Java (was: Java) References: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com> <19990327105112.A27233@netcom9.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org John Peterson wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:42:11PM +0000, Bob Deep wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different > > > platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the > > > language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, > > > you can do production work with it. > > > > Yea, you can.. At least I currently am... > > > > I see no real reason not to code any new application in Java if you meet > > the four following tests... > > > > 1. Your application does not need top computational performance in a > > small foot print.. > > 2. You can get a VM for the platform. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Relatively speaking, I'm still a neophyte as far as Java goes. However, > I have taken an interest in the language because of the portability > aspect, Sun's vocal plans for using Java in the embedded market, and my > own personal interest in handheld computers for aviation usage. > > Can someone summarize what is going on in the area of Personal Java > on embedded devices? As far as I can tell, "not much" sums it up. > Corel was talking about marketing a Personal Java based PDA which was > apparently shelved a year ago or so. I beleive that a lot of this was put on hold as it was based on MicroSoft's CE (??) OS that was supposed to support Java programs native and run in a small foot print. At this point M$ does not seem to be wanting to do anything with Java due to their lawsuit with Sun and the case with the DOJ and antitrust. Don't blame them, but some development shops are up a creek without an OS at this point... -= Bob =- - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 31 00:39:53 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id AAA11806 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:39:53 +0200 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11801 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:39:38 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id OAA18410 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:39:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:39:35 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Personal Java (was: Java) Message-ID: <19990330143935.A17152@netcom13.netcom.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990326120330.00969be0@158.222.8.12> <36FBF123.77961E22@cssgroup.com> <19990327105112.A27233@netcom9.netcom.com> <36FF8F70.26C8F2DA@cssgroup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36FF8F70.26C8F2DA@cssgroup.com>; from Bob Deep on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 02:34:24PM +0000 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Tue Mar 30 14:23:05 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 02:34:24PM +0000, Bob Deep wrote: > John Peterson wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 08:42:11PM +0000, Bob Deep wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, when my boss said, "Oh, and it has to run on these twelve different > > > > platforms," I opted for Java. The learning curve was steep and the > > > > language was immature but it has gotten much better. I think that, today, > > > > you can do production work with it. > > > > > > Yea, you can.. At least I currently am... > > > > > > I see no real reason not to code any new application in Java if you meet > > > the four following tests... > > > > > > 1. Your application does not need top computational performance in a > > > small foot print.. > > > 2. You can get a VM for the platform. > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Relatively speaking, I'm still a neophyte as far as Java goes. However, > > I have taken an interest in the language because of the portability > > aspect, Sun's vocal plans for using Java in the embedded market, and my > > own personal interest in handheld computers for aviation usage. > > > > Can someone summarize what is going on in the area of Personal Java > > on embedded devices? As far as I can tell, "not much" sums it up. > > Corel was talking about marketing a Personal Java based PDA which was > > apparently shelved a year ago or so. > > I beleive that a lot of this was put on hold as it was based on > MicroSoft's CE (??) OS that was supposed to support Java programs native > and run in a small foot print. At this point M$ does not seem to be > wanting to do anything with Java due to their lawsuit with Sun and the > case with the DOJ and antitrust. Don't blame them, but some development > shops are up a creek without an OS at this point... > I guess this is good news and bad news. It's too bad that PJ is stalled because of this, but then I (for one) am elated that M$ most likely won't be involved. On the other hand, I don't think Java is dead in the embedded world. I'm starting to dabble some with programming the Palm Pilot, and I find Greg Hewgill's Jump translator an interesting approach. If anyone has any experience with it, please let us know! It converts Java code into 68000 assembler, which can then be assembled into a .prc file. For details, see http://www.hewgill.com/pilot/jump/index.html - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 31 07:09:25 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id HAA20655 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:09:25 +0200 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (jaypee@netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20650 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:09:15 +0200 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id VAA17154 for linux-aviation@mail.nl.linux.org; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:09:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:09:08 -0800 From: John Peterson To: linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Subject: Java applications for aviation? Message-ID: <19990330210908.A15485@netcom12.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Tue Mar 30 20:59:13 PST 1999 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org While on the subject of Java, I'm curious to hear more about Java based software for aviation related endeavors. I found several good applications and applets while doing research for the FAQ (EPS, IGCview, and PilotPal). Are there any other ones out there that I have missed??? (Including commercial software). -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, | "Once you have flown, -(*)- | you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there o/ \o | you have been, there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Wed Mar 31 08:47:55 1999 Received: (from postmaster@localhost) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) id IAA18916 for linux-aviation-list; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:47:55 +0200 Received: from frodo.gezernet.co.il (frodo.gezernet.co.il [192.115.6.11]) by nl.linux.org (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18912 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:47:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199903310647.IAA18912@nl.linux.org> Received: (qmail 15586 invoked from network); 31 Mar 1999 06:47:43 -0000 Received: from butch.gezernet.co.il (192.115.7.241) by frodo.gezernet.co.il with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 06:47:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 2135 invoked from network); 31 Mar 1999 06:48:14 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO gezernet.co.il) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 06:48:14 -0000 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Personal Java (was: Java) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:39:35 -0800." <19990330143935.A17152@netcom13.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:48:14 +0400 From: Amos Shapira Sender: owner-linux-aviation@humbolt.nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org On Tue, March 30 1999, John Peterson wrote: | On the other hand, I don't think Java is dead in the embedded world. Not at all. As far as I get it, Java was INVENTED for the Embedded market. I don't know how much of what I know I can disclose (I work for Sun), but you can see even in the press about the Sun/Symbian which was struck just last week or so. The deal is about embedding Java in the Epoch OS, as far as I'm aware. Symbian is not only important because it is co-owned by the largest cellular manufacturers, who already agreed to standardize on Psion's Epoch OS, but also because Psion are one of the largest Palm-top computer makers, their OS is considered the main competitor for M$ WinCE (or at least used to be about a year ago). Disclaimer - I speak only for myself. Cheers, --Amos --Amos Shapira | "Of course Australia was marked for 133 Shlomo Ben-Yosef st. | glory, for its people had been chosen Jerusalem 93 805 | by the finest judges in England." ISRAEL amos@gezernet.co.il | -- Anonymous - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to .