From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Tue Feb 1 04:47:17 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 04:46:40 +0100 Received: from lsanca1-ar99-078-106.biz.dsl.gtei.net ([4.3.78.106]:34033 "EHLO lrz.uni-muenchen.de") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 04:46:18 +0100 Received: (from eugene.leitl@localhost) by lrz.uni-muenchen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29008; Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:43:58 -0800 From: Eugene Leitl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14486.22141.747354.760219@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:43:57 -0800 (PST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: GTE DUATS and weather graphics/etc. In-Reply-To: References: <9DA8D24B915BD1118911006094516EAF029EF012@umr-mail02> X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 21.1 (patch 4) "Arches" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list D.F.S. writes: > I would have to vote for perl. > > I'm a confirmed C bigot, but for this type of thing, processing files and > html and other random bits of info, I think Perl wins hands down. Python would do as well, if not better. Unless you already speak, drink and eat Perl. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Tue Feb 1 09:37:03 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:36:34 +0100 Received: from spider.nlr.nl ([137.17.80.200]:55835 "EHLO smtp-server.nlr.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:35:59 +0100 Received: from narsim.nlr.nl (narsim-nlr.nlr.nl [137.17.168.4]) by smtp-server.nlr.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/NLR 16/03/99) with ESMTP id JAA865677; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:33:18 +0100 (CET) X-Disclaimer: "The National Aerospace Laboratory NLR DOES NOT ACCEPT ANY FINANCIAL COMMITMENT derived from this message." Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by narsim.nlr.nl (8.8.6 (PHNE_17135)/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA11074 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:33:17 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:33:17 +0100 (MET) From: Jacco van Schaik X-Sender: jacco@narsim To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Data Compression In-Reply-To: <200001311731.JAA00964@shell13.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > When you use a compressor like gzip, you tell it: > > "Here is a file, or data area for you to compress. Here's where it > starts, here's how long it is. Put the compressed version over there. Come > back when you're through." > > Whereas with my compressor, you'd say: > > "I want you to start creating some compressed data for me." > ( compressor returns a 'handle' for use in subsequent calls ) > "Here's a kilobyte" > "Here's five hundred thirty three more bytes" > "Here's another byte" > "Here's another hundred bytes" > . > . > . > "OK, there's no more bytes. Finish it up!" Actually, the zlib library that (as far as I know) forms the basis for gzip does just that. There are functions like gzread(), gzwrite(), gzprintf() and gzgets() that are equivalent to the corresponding system functions. When reading, it automatically detects whether the input is compressed, so you can use these functions to read both compressed and uncompressed data. See /usr/include/zlib.h on your Linux box for more info. Groeten, - Jacco -- Think about it: | In Real Life: Jacco van Schaik If the wheel had never been | Mail me at: jacco@nlr.nl reinvented, we'd still be | Spam bait: postmaster@localhost driving on logs... | See also http://www.nlr.nl/NARSIM.html - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Tue Feb 1 22:03:10 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:02:33 +0100 Received: from mail.frc.com ([208.235.135.211]:26611 "EHLO mailsrv.frc.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:01:52 +0100 Received: from hqmail01.frc.com ([172.20.12.21]) by mailsrv.frc.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3A1B for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:58:56 -0500 Received: by hqmail01.frc.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <1B093802>; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:58:55 -0500 Message-ID: <2513CDDD84CED211BAC60008C75D45B102C81C29@hqmail01.frc.com> From: "Meier, Robert" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: RE: Data Compression Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:58:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list unix-users, > When you use a compressor like gzip, you tell it: > > "Here is a file, or data area for you to compress. Here's where it > starts, here's how long it is. Put the compressed version over there. Come > back when you're through." This is the batch mode of gzip normally used. I believe that gzip -c is a stream mode. In the stream mode, AFAIK, you can provide data in segments without specifying data lengths. Further, I believe, though did not test, that output starts before all input is provided. Dr. Robert J. Meier FANUC Robotics North America tel:+1.248.377.7469 mailto:robert.meier@fanucrobotics.com - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Tue Feb 1 23:12:31 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:12:01 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:23695 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:11:33 +0100 Received: from smtp.umr.edu (mrelay.cc.umr.edu [131.151.1.89]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with ESMTP id XAA28644 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:08:51 +0100 (MET) Received: from umr-mail01.cc.umr.edu (umr-mail01.cc.umr.edu [131.151.37.121]) via ESMTP by mrelay.cc.umr.edu (8.9.3/R.4.20) id QAA05665; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:07:40 -0600 Received: by umr-mail01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:08:05 -0600 Message-ID: <9DA8D24B915BD1118911006094516EAF029EF030@umr-mail02> From: "Neulinger, Nathan R." To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: RE: Data Compression Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:08:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list In fact, you can just continually append with new invocations of gzip -c. This is great for hourly compression of web logs. The only impact is that gunzip -l no longer produces reasonable numbers. -- Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ Nathan Neulinger EMail: nneul@umr.edu University of Missouri - Rolla Phone: (573) 341-4841 Computing Services Fax: (573) 341-4216 > -----Original Message----- > From: Meier, Robert [mailto:Bob.Meier@fanucrobotics.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 2:59 PM > To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Subject: RE: Data Compression > > > unix-users, > > > When you use a compressor like gzip, you tell it: > > > > "Here is a file, or data area for you to compress. > Here's where it > > starts, here's how long it is. Put the compressed version > over there. > Come > > back when you're through." > > This is the batch mode of gzip normally used. I believe that > gzip -c is a stream mode. In the stream mode, AFAIK, you can > provide data in segments without specifying data lengths. Further, I > believe, though did not test, that output starts before all input is > provided. > > Dr. Robert J. Meier FANUC Robotics North America > tel:+1.248.377.7469 mailto:robert.meier@fanucrobotics.com > - > Archives of linux-aviation: > http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ > To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" > in the body > of a mail message to . > - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Tue Feb 1 23:41:48 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:41:17 +0100 Received: from netcom19.netcom.com ([199.183.9.119]:30981 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:40:39 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03932 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:37:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:37:55 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Data Compression Message-ID: <20000201143755.A2719@netcom19.netcom.com> References: <200001311731.JAA00964@shell13.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jacco@nlr.nl on Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 09:33:17AM +0100 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Tue Feb 1 14:13:16 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 09:33:17AM +0100, Jacco van Schaik wrote: > On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > > When you use a compressor like gzip, you tell it: > > > > "Here is a file, or data area for you to compress. Here's where it > > starts, here's how long it is. Put the compressed version over there. Come > > back when you're through." > > > > [...snip...] A general comment about database compression. Note that in the case of the fplan databases, the records are padded to fixed lengths so that a binary search can be used for the lookup by identifier. (See Knueth or other texts for a description of the algorithm). The binary search is *very* fast compared to a simple search by sequential read. This is one feature that made fplan quite unique when it first came out in 1989. It actually ran *fast* on the PC's of that era... The problem with runtime de-compression is that fseek() is not fast (or even possible?) and it is crucial in the implementation of any fast search algorithm. My point is that you probably don't want to bother with compression on a desktop setup where disk space really isn't an issue. The speed penalty you would pay by giving up fast searching algorithms isn't worth the space savings in a world where 5-10 GB drives are common place. Of course, it DOES make sense if we are talking about a handheld or other environment where space is a premium. Just my $0.02 .... Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, the open -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | source operating system of the future! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 2 01:16:00 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:15:37 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:31751 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:14:57 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20]) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12FnOQ-0004dg-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:11:34 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12FnOO-0007B3-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:11:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Data Compression To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:11:32 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <20000201143755.A2719@netcom19.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Feb 01, 2000 02:37:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Several disclaimers up front: I didn't write fplan, and would not want to in any way detract from the great work done there. Secondly, I have no real reason to push compression if it is not an advantage, that is yet to be seen. Thirdly, I would not expect someone to retrofit existing programs. My vision was more along the lines of the fact we could easily fit this ENTIRE huge database of info that was shipped on a CD into maybe 10-15 megabytes. With that handy, The number and variety of programs, that could provide a wealth of info we have not even envisioned yet, is huge. A couple of points as well. The decompression code I mentioned is VERY fast. 15-16 Meg/Second on a 155 Mhz Pentium. On some machines with a fast CPU it will be faster to decompress the data on the fly than to read it straight from the disk. The simple reason is with a good compression ratio, the time it would take to read 4,5,8.. 12? times as much data from the disk would take a lot longer than the realtime decompression. Modern consumer disks don't average sustained thruput much over 8 Meg/Second last I saw.. If you Read for 1 second, get 8 meg of data and uncompress it at a 5-1 ratio, that is: 40 meg of data in (1+2.5)=3.5 seconds Read 40 Meg of data at 8 Meg/Sec, 5 Seconds. This is moot for random access, so a shift in the approach would be required. > A general comment about database compression. Note that in the > case of the fplan databases, the records are padded to fixed lengths so > that a binary search can be used for the lookup by identifier. (See > Knueth or other texts for a description of the algorithm). The binary > search is *very* fast compared to a simple search by sequential read. > This is one feature that made fplan quite unique when it first came out > in 1989. It actually ran *fast* on the PC's of that era... Do you mean a Binary Tree type Search? I'm not being sarcastic or snotty either, IF you are not talking about Binary or Btree searches, look into it. there are Huge advantages. I HOPE so, I presume so from your description. You are talking about a single Column or variable here. At least that is all you mentioned. I would presume you would also need to search on Lat/Lon values as well? That is not possible with the approach you mentioned, IE. The records are stored sorted be the identifier. The usual approach is to build an index and point it back at the file containing the data. This has several advantages: You are not wasting all that space keeping fixed length records. The indexes themselves can be kept in memory or easily be cached by any decent modern OS. You can search on many different parameters. In the case in question, that data can be compressed. Aren't there about 8K airports? 4 char Identifier and a 16 bit "Pointer" ~50K bytes to index the entire airport database. > > The problem with runtime de-compression is that fseek() is not > fast (or even possible?) and it is crucial in the implementation of > any fast search algorithm. My point is that you probably don't want to > bother with compression on a desktop setup where disk space really > isn't an issue. The speed penalty you would pay by giving up fast > searching algorithms isn't worth the space savings in a world where > 5-10 GB drives are common place. Of course, it DOES make sense if we > are talking about a handheld or other environment where space is a > premium. Just my $0.02 .... I see your point, depending on the platform. MY original point, and maybe a bad presumption, but one I'll stand by is that many of these systems could easily be running on hacked 3/486 Laptops running linux permanently mounted, as much as is legal, in the planes probably even with the screens removed, repackaged and mounted on the yoke or panel, with velco of course. Something I do in an instant with a $50-$75 laptop with a 400 Meg disk. Something I'd not do with my $2,500 new laptop with a 10 Gig disk which I use and depend on daily to make a living. That was the perspective I was coming from, the ability to dedicate trailing edge technology to a specific use in the plane. Even trailing edge technology is incredibly advanced compared to anything currently installed in GA planes aside from the latest generation of GPS Navigation systems. Using a laptop in a plane is a pain in the butt from my experience. A screen mounted someplace so you can see it but not have to hold it and one of those trackballs built for laptops stuck to the yoke along with software designed to be run 100% with the mouse would be a world apart. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 2 08:50:56 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:50:26 +0100 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com ([199.183.9.117]:17171 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:49:51 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA10115 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:45:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:45:01 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Data Compression Message-ID: <20000201234501.A9688@netcom17.netcom.com> References: <20000201143755.A2719@netcom19.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dfs@xmission.com on Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 05:11:32PM -0700 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Tue Feb 1 23:32:44 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Tue, Feb 01, 2000 at 05:11:32PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > >[...snip...] >My vision was more along the lines of the fact we could easily >fit this ENTIRE huge database of info that was shipped on a CD into >maybe 10-15 megabytes. >With that handy, The number and variety of programs, that could >provide a wealth of info we have not even envisioned yet, is huge. I think I need to get moving on getting the data to the winner of the recent "server donation drive", (thanks everyone who offered..) so that people can start looking at the data themselves! These kind of sizes are easily achievable using simple data reductions, (not that I'm totally against compression, I just have some unanswered concerns about the viability of fast search algorithms when using it). Let me inject some facts about the data; 1) The NASD CD-ROM as shipped wastes *HUGE* amounts of space because of the format they used; fixed length data fields, and fixed length records. Many of the data fields are either *completely* blank, or have very large numbers of leading or trailing blanks. As I had posted before, more than 82% of the characters are blanks! 2) By simply deleting leading and trailing blanks, and changing to some type of variable length fields (using a field delimiter character like ":" or "|") you can get this down to the sizes you stated. Doing this makes a lot of sense to me, since extraneous blanks get thrown out at some point, why not do it "up front" and eliminate the burden placed on application writers. If you delete all of the blanks you get; {kd6ekq:1173}% ls aff.txt com.txt hpf.txt nav.txt readme.txt wxl.txt apt.txt fix.txt ils.txt oth.txt ssd.txt arb.txt formats lid.txt pfr.txt sua.txt awy.txt fss.txt mtr.txt pja.txt twr.txt {kd6ekq:1174}% cat *.txt | tr -d ' ' | wc -c 33602633 I know this not exactly correct, since in practice you only delete leading, trailing blanks. But, an appprox upper bound. 3) A quick inspection of any of the formats, shows that many fields could be "compressed" by storing enumerations of the expected types. For example, the airport type in the NASD file is one of: "airport", "heliport", "gliderport", etc and this could easily be enumerated as 1, 2, 3, etc. for significant savings. 4) Here's a rough size of a minimal database, based on the current fplan databases that are stored using a ":" variable field width delimiter. If you eliminate all of the null chars used for padding, you get; {kd6ekq:1166}% cat airports.nav vors.nav \ | tr -d '\000'\ | wc -c 3227191 5) Once you go to variable width fields, and eliminate all those redundant blanks chars, the compression ratios you will get will not be as high as what you get with the "RAW" NASD files. Using the fplan databases as a simple benchmark, you get; {kd6ekq:1165}% cat airports.nav vors.nav \ | tr -d '\000' \ | bzip2 -9 - \ | wc -c 884003 This works out to be about 3.65 to 1 >> A general comment about database compression. Note that in the >> case of the fplan databases, the records are padded to fixed lengths so >> that a binary search can be used for the lookup by identifier. >> [...snip...] >Do you mean a Binary Tree type Search? Yes... >The usual approach is to build an index and point it back at the >file containing the data. > > This has several advantages: > You are not wasting all that space keeping fixed length records. Agreed, this is the way to go if you want to have the ability to search on different fields, and there are certainly many very good reasons to want this. I've already given consideration to switching to this type of approach with the fplan databases. I'm game if people want to start working on a spec for the files and fields. I wasn't suggesting fast binary was the best choice, my point was (as you also stated), you can do much better than simple sequential search. Further, it's not clear to me that these sorts of algorithms work well with compression? > [...snip...] >In the case in question, that data can be compressed. This is where I was bothered. Once you find the entry in the index for the record you want, you fseek() to the disk offset to actually read the data record. I just checked the zlib docs and they DO mention a gzseek(..., SEEK_SET) function which I wasn't aware of. Does it utilize a sequential read for positioning (ie: BAD performance), or is there some indexing of the blocks mechanism or the like that provides good performance???? > 4 char Identifier and a 16 bit "Pointer" ~50K bytes to index > the entire airport database. The identifiers for fixes and intersections are 5 chars long... FWIW, I'll throw out another opinion. The KISS principle has never failed me, and in this case it tells me that it would be foolish to try and convert *ALL* the fields from the NASD database. This would be a BIG job, and might take too darn long, or worse, it might never get done. I believe that it would be much better (and more timely) to start small and work up in steps. There are a lot of fields in the NASD files you will never care about. Start with the fields that, say fplan uses, and add to them those that you know you could use, then add those you think you *might* use, and at some point, forget the rest. My educated guess is that when you are done, you'll still have less than 20 Mb of real usable data without going to much trouble. Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for x86, the operating system -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | that gives *you* the right of fair use! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 2 09:24:43 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:24:18 +0100 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com ([199.183.9.117]:27653 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:24:06 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA11314 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:19:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:19:19 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: US National Airspace Data CD-ROM - ATA-120 Message-ID: <20000202001919.A11098@netcom17.netcom.com> References: <20000126113042.A186@netcom12.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from cloos@jhcloos.com on Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 03:20:53AM -0600 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Wed Feb 2 00:11:32 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 03:20:53AM -0600, James H. Cloos Jr. wrote: > >>>>> "John" == John C Peterson writes: > > John> I think we are waiting for someone to offer to provide the > John> resources required. The files are way too large to post to the > John> list, we would need an http or ftp server with good > John> connectivity. If the files are compressed with "gzip -9", the > John> storage resources required are about 14 Mb, with "bzip2 -9" > John> about 8 Mb. (I posted a detailed summary of various > John> commpression methods on Wed, Dec 15, 1999). > > I can host a copy (accessible via ftp, http and soon rsync). The box > is at a site w/ 3 DS-3s, so bandwidth shouldn't be an issue. Hello Jim, Sounds like you've got the best connection bandwidth of all the offers. Are you located in the USA? If so, here's a peek at the gzipped data below. Can you provide ftp access, or if you prefer I can put it somewhere for you to grab... John P {christina:2105}% ls -l total 13088 -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 816 Dec 2 23:58 README.TXT -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 1701 Dec 9 03:05 README2.TXT -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 137010 Nov 12 00:47 aff.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 6638055 Dec 8 05:07 apt.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 33527 Dec 8 11:51 arb.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 821790 Nov 12 00:35 awy.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 72156 Dec 2 08:37 com.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 1110183 Nov 12 02:33 fix.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 50854 Dec 9 03:47 format.tar.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 80508 Dec 2 06:44 fss.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 645089 Nov 12 00:44 hpf.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 228867 Dec 2 08:14 ils.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 725685 Dec 2 09:01 lid.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 707117 Nov 12 02:52 mtr.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 490246 Dec 2 08:08 nav.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 226927 Dec 2 08:56 oth.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 301844 Nov 12 10:10 pfr.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 40023 Nov 12 00:44 pja.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 162090 Dec 2 02:00 ssd.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 215716 Nov 12 04:23 sua.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 526279 Dec 2 08:21 twr.txt.gz -rw-r--r-- 1 jcp tech 57680 Dec 2 06:43 wxl.txt.gz -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for x86, the operating system -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | that gives *you* the right of fair use! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 2 18:20:52 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:20:25 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:19204 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:19:50 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12G3Mh-00071J-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:14:51 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12G3Mg-0000PS-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:14:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Data Compression To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:14:50 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <20000201234501.A9688@netcom17.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Feb 01, 2000 11:45:01 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list First off, It appears you took my statement in the spirit they were offered in. I'm glad to see that. Snip Good comments about removing wasted white space and going to variable length recods, I agree. > >> A general comment about database compression. Note that in the > >> case of the fplan databases, the records are padded to fixed lengths so > >> that a binary search can be used for the lookup by identifier. > >> [...snip...] > >Do you mean a Binary Tree type Search? > > Yes... > > >The usual approach is to build an index and point it back at the > >file containing the data. > > > > This has several advantages: > > You are not wasting all that space keeping fixed length records. > > Agreed, this is the way to go if you want to have the ability to > search on different fields, and there are certainly many very good > reasons to want this. > > I've already given consideration to switching to this type of > approach with the fplan databases. I'm game if people want to start > working on a spec for the files and fields. I wasn't suggesting fast binary > was the best choice, my point was (as you also stated), you can do much > better than simple sequential search. There are better search methods than B-Tree in some cases, but they offer so little relative improvement in a general case, I probably wouldn't bother. > Further, it's not clear to me that > these sorts of algorithms work well with compression? There are issues there, I admit. My original intent was to be able to generate a delimited file extracted from the original fixed length mainframe data and write them out into more logical individual that are half way "Normalized". Then compress them with a library so that a person had the option of reading them from the compressed state directly using that library or running a decompression program on them first. With the way this kind of software is written and supported, Ie. freely and for personal reasons, I don't think anybody should dictate how programs are written. This is not a job and a person should have the freedom to code or design however they want to with no required justification. Advice, speculation, brainstorming and suggestions are what this list should be about, if an author wants the input. > > > [...snip...] > >In the case in question, that data can be compressed. > > This is where I was bothered. Once you find the entry in the index > for the record you want, you fseek() to the disk offset to actually > read the data record. I just checked the zlib docs and they DO mention a > gzseek(..., SEEK_SET) function which I wasn't aware of. Does it utilize > a sequential read for positioning (ie: BAD performance), or is there > some indexing of the blocks mechanism or the like that provides good > performance???? That is something we need to look into. Worst case, the way I see it there would be a decision made based on how fast a sequential read is, and what the relative Pros & Cons are of living with that speed, whatever it is. looking at how often you would actually be doing a specific type of read. Figuring how much work it would be to make it work differently. Figuring the space required to simply store it in an uncompressed state. SNIP > > FWIW, I'll throw out another opinion. The KISS principle has never > failed me, and in this case it tells me that it would be foolish to try > and convert *ALL* the fields from the NASD database. This would be a > BIG job, and might take too darn long, or worse, it might never get done. > > I believe that it would be much better (and more timely) to start small > and work up in steps. There are a lot of fields in the NASD files you > will never care about. Start with the fields that, say fplan uses, > and add to them those that you know you could use, then add those you > think you *might* use, and at some point, forget the rest. My educated > guess is that when you are done, you'll still have less than 20 Mb of > real usable data without going to much trouble. I see your point in things getting finished. I also see how high the payback is on converting or enumerating many of the fields in the database, stuff that takes 12 chars and only contains 3 different values in the whole data set. That is where I looked to compression, in a few hours you could pack the whole thing down and get much of the benefit size-wise without all the work required to convert specific fields. In the end, specific fields should probably be converted as someone needs them, but I'd hate to start excluding anything from the dataset because "Nobody will ever need it". The OPTION of compression should remove most of the reason anyone would have to remove anything for space reasons. Sotra the "Save the space now, keep all the options open, and make it better as we have time or reason" option. And as I said before, all we need to do is include a decompression program with the data, and people can do whatever they want with it. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 2 21:49:28 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:48:51 +0100 Received: from austin.jhcloos.com ([206.224.83.202]:14099 "EHLO jhcloos.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:48:17 +0100 Received: (from cloos@localhost) by jhcloos.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA25786; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:43:28 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: austin.jhcloos.com: cloos set sender to cloos@jhcloos.com using -f To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: US National Airspace Data CD-ROM - ATA-120 References: <20000126113042.A186@netcom12.netcom.com> <20000202001919.A11098@netcom17.netcom.com> From: "James H. Cloos Jr." In-Reply-To: "John C. Peterson"'s message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2000 00:19:19 -0800" Date: 02 Feb 2000 14:43:27 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list The data is available now at and at . There is a link to the latter on . (And please take a look at said link, to make sure I got the refs to the faa's site correct, eh?) I've verified the md5s against the MD5SUMS file. -JimC -- James H. Cloos, Jr. 1024D/ED7DAEA6 E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Save Trees: Get E-Gold! - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 3 00:26:08 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:25:41 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:25354 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:25:01 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12G94J-0002nz-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:20:15 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12G94I-0005mA-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:20:14 -0700 Subject: Re: US National Airspace Data CD-ROM - ATA-120 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:20:14 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "James H. Cloos Jr." at Feb 02, 2000 02:43:27 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > The data is available now at and > at . There is a link to the latter > on . (And please take a look at said link, > to make sure I got the refs to the faa's site correct, eh?) > Great, thanks for providing the space and the connectivity. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 3 18:47:58 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:47:18 +0100 Received: from shell13.ba.best.com ([206.184.139.144]:54533 "EHLO shell13.ba.best.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:46:50 +0100 Received: (from jerryk@localhost) by shell13.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA17253; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:41:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Message-Id: <200002031741.JAA17253@shell13.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Data Compression In-Reply-To: from "D.F.S." at "Feb 1, 0 05:11:32 pm" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:41:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Hello, Several people have mentioned that gzip now has a "stream" option that does pretty much what my little compressor did. It sure didn't back then. I went through the source with a fine-tooth comb, and at that time, it did indeed work as I described. Time marches on. My compressor had a very small footprint - about 6K. That's less important now than it was then - nowadays even an in-cockpit laptop can be expected to have significant computing resources. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 3 19:54:07 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:53:42 +0100 Received: from netcom9.netcom.com ([199.183.9.109]:25348 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:53:07 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15620 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:45:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:45:32 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Crusoe and Mobile Linux for in flight computing... Message-ID: <20000203104532.A14666@netcom9.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Thu Feb 3 10:37:37 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list I assume many of you saw or heard about Transmeta's new Crusoe processor that will offer very low power consumption, and also about "Mobile Linux" which will be tuned for platforms with modest resources. (See http://www.transmeta.com/ if you haven't). Has anyone seen any 3rd party products yet? I guess these internet appliances will run from ROM. Anybody seen any chatter about products that can run other applications? (ie: your own cool stuff). This would be just the ticket for glider applications where batteries are your only power source. Useful for power planes as well of course. John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | "640 K is all the memory you -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | will *ever* need..." - Bill Gates o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 3 23:16:53 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:16:28 +0100 Received: from [212.10.16.237] ([212.10.16.237]:44044 "HELO mail.mazzive.dk") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with SMTP id ; Thu, 3 Feb 2000 23:15:45 +0100 Received: (qmail 14645 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2000 22:08:03 -0000 Received: from bell.kimbrer.net (HELO mazzive.dk) (212.10.16.227) by www.kimbrer.net with SMTP; 3 Feb 2000 22:08:03 -0000 From: Ole Barnkob Kaas To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:00:43 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20000203104532.A14666@netcom9.netcom.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0Preview7 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: Crusoe and Mobile Linux for in flight computing... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Hello John, on 03-Feb-00, you wrote: > Has anyone seen any 3rd party products yet? I guess these internet > appliances will run from ROM. Anybody seen any chatter about products > that can run other applications? (ie: your own cool stuff). This would > be just the ticket for glider applications where batteries are your > only power source. Useful for power planes as well of course. > I planning such projekt. The problem is that the hw isn't ready yet - but I hope it will be soon. The hw is an Open Source microcontroller board - Linux In A Box (LIAB) http://www.liab.dk Background: Some 18 month ago my gliding club installed 2 DX50FAI flight logger in our Ls-4b and DG300. It's so easy to accomplish a task with those computers and you allways know if you're in gliding range of the home base. But they aren't wery good for club usage - eg. changing the pilot name with the push buttons is a real pain in teh butt. Using a pc is easier, but the sw really suck and is ms-dos only. The price for the DX50FAI is around $1600+tax - my guess is that the liab (~$250) + display (320x200 b/w), some pressure transducers, gps reciever and stuff can be acquired at half the price. Possible features to implement: - Logging (obvious) - Computing glidepath and other stuff (obvious) - Pilot recognition by keycard (can be made very simple) - Using packet radio to send position back to ground (150 km radius) - Displaying glider position on screen on ground (with packet radio) - A logger in all the club gliders => eliminating writing start-list on ground - Collect all tracks in sql database and make statistics - Display an exact copy of the logbook on screen showing *exactly* where you should write the data. - Your own cool app that will double /your/ glide range ;-) - More... While I'm waiting for the main hw to be made available, I try to get someone interested in this project and maybe find someone to finance it :-). As soon as the the project starts, there will be a CSV server available (found one for free :-). First it might be nice with a discussion of how to implement all these features. Should it all be made in C or should it only be the basic and the rest made in eg python? What other tools should be used? Regards/ /Ole Kaas - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 4 19:18:36 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:18:08 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:46086 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:17:31 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12GnDl-0002Ym-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:12:41 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12GnDk-0003nW-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:12:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Perl Code to generate delimited files from NASD data. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:12:40 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Ole Barnkob Kaas" at Feb 04, 2000 12:00:43 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list I have a piece of perl code to process the NASD files. It runs off a table of data bases on the description files. The only file defined so far is the airport file file. I would hope the way individual file formats are defined is clear without any further explanation. I intend to build one of these for each file or maybe one big one for all the files unless that gets too big and convoluted. It generates Vertical bar delimited files. There are no vertical bar chars in any of the original data, unlike commas. The vertical bar is another common convention for delimiting files. If someone wants something else, it is a simple one line change and is left as an excersise for the user. The program generates 3 output files for the three different kinds of records contained in the apt file. Nothing has been removed aside from blanks and filler fields. Here are the results: These are record type counts. Airports 19615 Runway 23460 Remarks 64587 System Time to run program on a 350 Mhz AMD K6. 184.27 user 2.22 system 3:24.04 elapsed 91% CPU File outputs. 9006 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 9184999 Feb 4 10:40 apt.apt.delimited 4675 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 4766349 Feb 4 10:40 apt.rmk.delimited 3859 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3934793 Feb 4 10:40 apt.rwy.delimited # gzip *.delimited 2158 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 2198942 Feb 4 10:40 apt.apt.delimited.gz 1273 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 1296794 Feb 4 10:40 apt.rmk.delimited.gz 766 -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 779955 Feb 4 10:40 apt.rwy.delimited.gz Here is the Perl code. #!/usr/bin/perl -w #=========================================================================# # Program Name: convert_apt.pl # # Purpose: Read NASD fixed length data and convert to delimited format # # and split into different files based on record type # # # # Filenames and paths: # #=========================================================================# #eval '$'.$1.'$2;' while $ARGV[0] =~ /^([A-Za-z_]+=)(.*)/ && shift; # process any FOO=bar switches #============# # Open files # #============# use English; #---input file---# open("input_file", "../NASD-1999-12-31/apt.txt") || die 'Cannot open file "../NASD-1999-12-31/apt.txt - Cause: $! ".'; #---output file---# open( apt_file , ">./apt.apt.delimited") || die 'Cannot create file ">./apt.apt.delimited - Cause: $! ".'; #---output file---# open( rwy_file , ">./apt.rwy.delimited") || die 'Cannot create file ">./apt.rwy.delimited - Cause: $! ".'; #---output file---# open( rmk_file , ">./apt.rmk.delimited") || die 'Cannot create file ">./apt.rmk.delimited - Cause: $! ".'; #======================# # Variable Definitions # #======================# # A -> Justification Left/Right # B -> Type Alphanumeric or Numeric # C -> Data Length # D -> Data Start position # E -> Provided Field ID, not of any use IMHO. # F -> Action this program will take with field. Case statement open to additional features # G -> Longer description of field. pulled from the first line only and not modified aside # from adding the escape \' for any embedded single quotes. # A B C D E F G $apt_fields=[ ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00001', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'RECORD TYPE INDICATOR. = APT'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00004', 'DLID ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FACILITY SITE NUMBER'], ['L', 'AN', '0013', '00015', 'DLID ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FACILITY TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00028', 'E7 ', 'WRITE', 'LOCATION IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0010', '00032', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'INFORMATION EFFECTIVE DATE (MM/DD/YYYY)'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00042', 'A6 ', 'WRITE', 'FAA REGION CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00045', 'A6A ', 'WRITE', 'FAA DISTRICT OR FIELD OFFICE CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00049', 'A4 ', 'WRITE', 'ASSOCIATED STATE POST OFFICE CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0020', '00051', 'A4 ', 'WRITE', 'ASSOCIATED STATE NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0021', '00071', 'A5 ', 'WRITE', 'ASSOCIATED COUNTY (OR PARISH) NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00092', 'A5 ', 'WRITE', 'ASSOCIATED COUNTY\'S STATE (POST OFFICE CODE)'], ['L', 'AN', '0026', '00094', 'A1 ', 'WRITE', 'ASSOCIATED CITY NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0042', '00120', 'A2 ', 'WRITE', 'OFFICIAL FACILITY NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00162', 'A10 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT OWNERSHIP TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00164', 'A18 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY USE'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00166', 'A11 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY OWNER\'S NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00195', 'A12 ', 'WRITE', 'OWNER\'S ADDRESS'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00224', 'A12A ', 'WRITE', 'OWNER\'S CITY, STATE AND ZIP CODE'], ['R', 'AN', '0012', '00253', 'A13 ', 'WRITE', 'OWNER\'S PHONE NUMBER'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00265', 'A14 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY MANAGER\'S NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00294', 'A15 ', 'WRITE', 'MANAGER\'S ADDRESS'], ['L', 'AN', '0029', '00323', 'A15A ', 'WRITE', 'MANAGER\'S CITY, STATE AND ZIP CODE'], ['R', 'AN', '0012', '00352', 'A16 ', 'WRITE', 'MANAGER\'S PHONE NUMBER'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00364', 'A19 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT LATITUDE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00378', 'A19S ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT LATITUDE (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00389', 'A20 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT LONGITUDE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00403', 'A20S ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT LONGITUDE (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00414', 'A19A ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT REFERENCE POINT DETERMINATION METHOD'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00415', 'A21 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT ELEVATION (NEAREST FOOT MSL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00420', 'A21 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT ELEVATION DETERMINATION METHOD'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00421', 'E28 ', 'WRITE', 'MAGNETIC VARIATION AND DIRECTION'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00424', 'E28 ', 'WRITE', 'MAGNETIC VARIATION EPOCH YEAR'], ['R', 'AN', '0004', '00428', 'E147 ', 'WRITE', 'TRAFFIC PATTERN ALTITUDE (WHOLE FEET AGL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0016', '00432', 'A7 ', 'WRITE', 'AERONAUTICAL SECTIONAL CHART ON WHICH FACILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00448', 'A3 ', 'WRITE', 'DISTANCE FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS DISTRICT OF CITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00450', 'A3 ', 'WRITE', 'DIRECTION OF AIRPORT FROM CENTRAL BUSINESS'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00453', 'E146A ', 'WRITE', 'BOUNDARY ARTCC IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00456', 'E146B ', 'WRITE', 'BOUNDARY ARTCC (FAA) COMPUTER IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0020', '00459', 'E146C ', 'WRITE', 'BOUNDARY ARTCC NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00479', 'E156A ', 'WRITE', 'RESPONSIBLE ARTCC IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00482', 'E156B ', 'WRITE', 'RESPONSIBLE ARTCC (FAA) COMPUTER IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0020', '00485', 'E156C ', 'WRITE', 'RESPONSIBLE ARTCC NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00505', 'A87 ', 'WRITE', 'TIE-IN FSS PHYSICALLY LOCATED ON FACILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00506', 'A86 ', 'WRITE', 'TIE-IN FLIGHT SERVICE STATION (FSS) IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0026', '00510', 'A86 ', 'WRITE', 'TIE-IN FSS NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0016', '00536', 'A89 ', 'WRITE', 'TOLL FREE PHONE NUMBER FROM AIRPORT TO FSS'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00552', 'A86A ', 'WRITE', 'ALTERNATE FSS IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0026', '00556', 'A86A ', 'WRITE', 'ALTERNATE FSS NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0016', '00582', 'E3A ', 'WRITE', 'TOLL FREE PHONE NUMBER FROM AIRPORT TO'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00598', 'E2B ', 'WRITE', 'IDENTIFIER OF THE FACILITY RESPONSIBLE FOR'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00602', 'E139 ', 'WRITE', 'AVAILABILITY OF NOTAM \'D\' SERVICE AT AIRPORT'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00603', 'E157 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT ACTIVATION DATE (MM/YYYY)'], ['L', 'AN', '0010', '00610', 'A26 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT CERTIFICATION TYPE AND DATE'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00620', 'A25 ', 'WRITE', 'NASP/FEDERAL AGREEMENT CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0013', '00627', 'E111 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT AIRSPACE ANALYSIS DETERMINATION'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00640', 'E79 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY HAS BEEN DESIGNATED BY THE U.S. TREASURY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00641', 'E80 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY HAS BEEN DESIGNATED BY THE U.S. TREASURY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00642', 'E115 ', 'WRITE', 'FACILITY HAS MILITARY/CIVIL JOINT USE AGREEMENT'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00643', 'E116 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT HAS ENTERED INTO AN AGREEMENT THAT'], ['L', 'AN', '0018', '00644', 'E141A ', 'WRITE', 'STATUS OF AIRPORT THAT IS AVAILABLE FOR USE'], ['L', 'AN', '0006', '00662', 'E141B ', 'WRITE', 'MILITARY DEPARTMENT(S) THAT MAINTAIN NATIONAL'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00668', 'E155 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT INSPECTION METHOD'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00670', 'A111 ', 'WRITE', 'AGENCY/GROUP PERFORMING PHYSICAL INSPECTION'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00671', 'A112 ', 'WRITE', 'LAST PHYSICAL INSPECTION DATE (MMDDYYYY)'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00679', 'A113 ', 'WRITE', 'LAST DATE INFORMATION REQUEST WAS COMPLETED'], ['L', 'AN', '0040', '00687', 'A70 ', 'WRITE', 'FUEL TYPES AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC USE AT THE'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00727', 'A71 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRFRAME REPAIR SERVICE AVAILABILITY/TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00732', 'A72 ', 'WRITE', 'POWER PLANT (ENGINE) REPAIR AVAILABILITY/TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00737', 'A73 ', 'WRITE', 'TYPE OF BOTTLED OXYGEN AVAILABLE (VALUE REPRESENTS'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00745', 'A74 ', 'WRITE', 'TYPE OF BULK OXYGEN AVAILABLE (VALUE REPRESENTS'], ['L', 'AN', '0077', '00753', 'A17 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT ATTENDANCE SCHEDULE (WHEN MINIMUM'], ['L', 'AN', '0009', '00830', 'A81 ', 'WRITE', 'AIRPORT LIGHTING SCHEDULE'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00839', 'A85 ', 'WRITE', 'AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TOWER LOCATED ON AIRPORT'], ['L', 'AN', '0042', '00840', 'A82 ', 'WRITE', 'UNICOM FREQUENCIES AVAILABLE AT THE AIRPORT'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00882', 'E100 ', 'WRITE', 'COMMON TRAFFIC ADVISORY FREQUENCY (CTAF)'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00889', 'A84 ', 'WRITE', 'SEGMENTED CIRCLE AIRPORT MARKER SYSTEM ON THE AIRPORT'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00893', 'A80 ', 'WRITE', 'LENS COLOR OF OPERABLE BEACON LOCATED ON THE AIRPORT'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00896', 'A24 ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FEE CHARGED TO NON-COMMERCIAL USERS OF '], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00897', 'A90 ', 'WRITE', 'SINGLE ENGINE GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT'], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00900', 'A91 ', 'WRITE', 'MULTI ENGINE GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT'], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00903', 'A92 ', 'WRITE', 'JET ENGINE GENERAL AVIATION AIRCRAFT'], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00906', 'A93 ', 'WRITE', 'GENERAL AVIATION HELICOPTER'], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00909', 'A94 ', 'WRITE', 'OPERATIONAL GLIDERS'], ['R', ' N', '0003', '00912', 'A95 ', 'WRITE', 'OPERATIONAL MILITARY AIRCRAFT (INCLUDING HELICOPTERS) '], ['L', ' N', '0003', '00915', 'A96 ', 'WRITE', 'ULTRALIGHT AIRCRAFT'], ['R', ' N', '0006', '00918', 'A100 ', 'WRITE', 'COMMERCIAL SERVICES'], ['R', ' N', '0006', '00924', 'A102 ', 'WRITE', 'AIR TAXI'], ['R', ' N', '0006', '00930', 'A103 ', 'WRITE', 'GENERAL AVIATION LOCAL OPERATIONS'], ['R', ' N', '0006', '00936', 'A104 ', 'WRITE', 'GENERAL AVIATION ITINERANT OPERATIONS'], ['R', ' N', '0006', '00942', 'A105 ', 'WRITE', 'MILITARY AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS'], ['END-OF-LIST', '', '0', '0', '', '', 'End of list marker for internal program use '] ]; $rwy_fields=[ ['L', 'AN', ' 3', '00001', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'RECORD TYPE INDICATOR.'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00004', 'DLID ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FACILITY SITE NUMBER'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00015', 'DLID ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY STATE POST OFFICE CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00017', 'DLID ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY IDENTIFICATION'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00024', 'A31 ', 'WRITE', 'PHYSICAL RUNWAY LENGTH (NEAREST FOOT)'], ['R', 'AN', '0004', '00029', 'A32 ', 'WRITE', 'PHYSICAL RUNWAY WIDTH (NEAREST FOOT)'], ['L', 'AN', '0012', '00033', 'A33 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY SURFACE TYPE AND CONDITION'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00045', 'A34 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY SURFACE TREATMENT'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00050', 'A39 ', 'WRITE', 'PAVEMENT CLASSIFICATION NUMBER (PCN)'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00061', 'A40 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY LIGHTS EDGE INTENSITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00066', 'A30A ', 'WRITE', 'BASE END IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00069', 'E46 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END TRUE ALIGNMENT'], ['L', 'AN', '0010', '00072', 'I22 ', 'WRITE', 'INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM (ILS) TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00082', 'A23 ', 'WRITE', 'RIGHT HAND TRAFFIC PATTERN FOR LANDING AIRCRAFT'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00083', 'A42 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY MARKINGS (TYPE)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00088', 'A42 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY MARKINGS (CONDITION)'], ['L', 'AN', '0006', '00089', 'E60 ', 'WRITE', 'TYPE OF AIRCRAFT ARRESTING DEVICE'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00095', 'E68 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00109', 'E68S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00120', 'E69 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00134', 'E69S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00145', 'E70 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION (FEET MSL) AT PHYSICAL RUNWAY END'], ['R', 'AN', '0003', '00152', 'A44 ', 'WRITE', 'THRESHOLD CROSSING HEIGHT (FEET AGL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00155', 'A45 ', 'WRITE', 'VISUAL GLIDE PATH ANGLE (HUNDREDTHS OF DEGREES)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00159', 'E161 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00173', 'E161S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00184', 'E162 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00198', 'E162S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00209', 'E160 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FEET AGL)'], ['R', 'AN', '0004', '00216', 'A51 ', 'WRITE', 'DISPLACED THRESHOLD - LENGTH IN FEET FROM'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00220', 'E164 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00234', 'E164S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00245', 'E165 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00259', 'E165S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00270', 'E163 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FEET AGL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00277', 'A43 ', 'WRITE', 'VISUAL GLIDE SLOPE INDICATORS'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00282', 'A47 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY VISUAL RANGE EQUIPMENT (RVR)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00285', 'A47A ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY VISIBILITY VALUE EQUIPMENT (RVV)'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00286', 'A49 ', 'WRITE', 'APPROACH LIGHT SYSTEM'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00294', 'A48 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END IDENTIFIER LIGHTS (REIL) AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00295', 'A46 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY CENTERLINE LIGHTS AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00296', 'A46A ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END TOUCHDOWN LIGHTS AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00297', 'A52 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT DESCRIPTION'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00308', 'A53 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT MARKED/LIGHTED'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00312', 'A50 ', 'WRITE', 'FAA FAR PART 77 (OBJECTS AFFECTING NAVIGABLE AIRSPACE)'], ['R', 'AN', '0002', '00317', 'A57 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT CLEARANCE SLOPE'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00319', 'A54 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT HEIGHT ABOVE RUNWAY'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00324', 'A55 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT DISTANCE FROM RUNWAY END'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00329', 'A56 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT CENTERLINE OFFSET'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00336', 'A30A ', 'WRITE', 'RECIPROCAL END IDENTIFIER'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00339', 'E46 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END TRUE ALIGNMENT'], ['L', 'AN', '0010', '00342', 'I22 ', 'WRITE', 'INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM (ILS) TYPE'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00352', 'A23 ', 'WRITE', 'RIGHT HAND TRAFFIC PATTERN FOR LANDING AIRCRAFT'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00353', 'A42 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY MARKINGS (TYPE)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00358', 'A42 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY MARKINGS (CONDITION)'], ['L', 'AN', '0006', '00359', 'E60 ', 'WRITE', 'TYPE OF AIRCRAFT ARRESTING DEVICE'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00365', 'E68 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00379', 'E68S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00390', 'E69 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00404', 'E69S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00415', 'E70 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION (FEET MSL) AT PHYSICAL RUNWAY END'], ['R', 'AN', '0003', '00422', 'A44 ', 'WRITE', 'THRESHOLD CROSSING HEIGHT (FEET AGL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00425', 'A45 ', 'WRITE', 'VISUAL GLIDE PATH ANGLE (HUNDREDTHS OF DEGREES)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00429', 'E161 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00443', 'E161S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00454', 'E162 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00468', 'E162S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00479', 'E160 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FEET AGL)'], ['R', 'AN', '0004', '00486', 'A51 ', 'WRITE', 'DISPLACED THRESHOLD - LENGTH IN FEET FROM'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00490', 'E164 ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00504', 'E164S ', 'WRITE', 'LATITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (SECONDS)'], ['L', 'AN', '0014', '00515', 'E165 ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FORMATTED)'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00529', 'E165S ', 'WRITE', 'LONGITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (SECONDS)'], ['R', 'AN', '0007', '00540', 'E163 ', 'WRITE', 'ELEVATION AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FEET AGL)'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00547', 'A43 ', 'WRITE', 'APPROACH SLOPE INDICATOR EQUIPMENT'], ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00552', 'A47 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY VISUAL RANGE EQUIPMENT (RVR)'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00555', 'A47A ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY VISIBILITY VALUE EQUIPMENT (RVV)'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00556', 'A49 ', 'WRITE', 'APPROACH LIGHT SYSTEM'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00564', 'A48 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END IDENTIFIER LIGHTS (REIL) AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00565', 'A46 ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY CENTERLINE LIGHTS AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0001', '00566', 'A46A ', 'WRITE', 'RUNWAY END TOUCHDOWN LIGHTS AVAILABILITY'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00567', 'A52 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT DESCRIPTION'], ['L', 'AN', '0004', '00578', 'A53 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT MARKED/LIGHTED'], ['L', 'AN', '0005', '00582', 'A50 ', 'WRITE', 'FAA FAR PART 77 (OBJECTS AFFECTING NAVIGABLE AIRSPACE)'], ['R', 'AN', '0002', '00587', 'A57 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT CLEARANCE SLOPE'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00589', 'A54 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT HEIGHT ABOVE RUNWAY'], ['R', 'AN', '0005', '00594', 'A55 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT DISTANCE FROM RUNWAY END'], ['L', 'AN', '0007', '00599', 'A56 ', 'WRITE', 'CONTROLLING OBJECT CENTERLINE OFFSET'], ['L', 'AN', '0342', '00606', 'N/A ', 'DISCARD', 'RUNWAY RECORD FILLER FIELD (BLANK)'], ['END-OF-LIST', '', '0', '0', '', '', 'End of list marker for internal program use '] ]; $rmk_fields=[ ['L', 'AN', '0003', '00001', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'RECORD TYPE INDICATOR.'], ['L', 'AN', '0011', '00004', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FACILITY SITE NUMBER'], ['L', 'AN', '0002', '00015', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'LANDING FACILITY STATE POST OFFICE CODE'], ['L', 'AN', '0008', '00017', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'REMARK ELEMENT NAME'], ['L', 'AN', '0300', '00025', 'N/A ', 'WRITE', 'REMARK TEXT'], ['L', 'AN', '0623', '00325', 'N/A ', 'DISCARD', 'REMARK RECORD FILLER FIELD (BLANK)'], ['END-OF-LIST', '', '0', '0', '', '', 'End of list marker for internal program use '] ]; $apt_count = 0; $rwy_count = 0; $rmk_count = 0; while ($current_line = ) { $rec_count++; $rec_type = substr($current_line, 0, 3); # Remove comment tp print to screen # printf "%10d %4s \n", $rec_count, $rec_type; if ($rec_type eq 'APT') { $apt_count++; # Loop thru all the field definitions of the record type identified APT, RWY, RMK. # Process each field according to the action listed (element 5) Currently only # Write and Discard are used. currently if it is not write, skip it. # Other actions to do validations or other processing could be be added. # Strip leading or trailing whitespace depending on the defined justification. # lc is the loop counter variable. for ($lc=0; $apt_fields->[$lc][0] ne 'END-OF-LIST'; $lc++) { if ($apt_fields->[$lc][5] eq 'WRITE'){ $field_data = substr($current_line, ($apt_fields->[$lc][3]-1), $apt_fields->[$lc][2]); if ($apt_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'L'){ $field_data =~ s/\s+$// ; #trim trailing whitespace } if ($apt_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'R'){ $field_data =~ s/^\s+//; #trim leading whitespace } # Remove comment tp print to screen # printf "%50.50s -->%s<-- \n",$apt_fields->[$lc][6], $field_data; printf apt_file "%s\|", $field_data; } } printf apt_file "\n"; } if ($rec_type eq 'RWY') { $rwy_count++; # Loop thru all the field definitions of the record type identified APT, RWY, RMK. # Process each field according to the action listed (element 5) Currently only # Write and Discard are used. currently if it is not write, skip it. # Other actions to do validations or other processing could be be added. # Strip leading or trailing whitespace depending on the defined justification. # lc is the loop counter variable. for ($lc=0; $rwy_fields->[$lc][0] ne 'END-OF-LIST'; $lc++) { if ($rwy_fields->[$lc][5] eq 'WRITE'){ $field_data = substr($current_line, ($rwy_fields->[$lc][3]-1), $rwy_fields->[$lc][2]); if ($rwy_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'L'){ $field_data =~ s/\s+$// ; #trim trailing whitespace } if ($rwy_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'R'){ $field_data =~ s/^\s+//; #trim leading whitespace } # Remove comment tp print to screen # printf "%50.50s -->%s<-- \n",$rwy_fields->[$lc][6], $field_data; printf rwy_file "%s\|", $field_data; } } printf rwy_file "\n"; } if ($rec_type eq 'RMK') { $rmk_count++; # Loop thru all the field definitions of the record type identified APT, RWY, RMK. # Process each field according to the action listed (element 5) Currently only # Write and Discard are used. currently if it is not write, skip it. # Other actions to do validations or other processing could be be added. # Strip leading or trailing whitespace depending on the defined justification. # lc is the loop counter variable. for ($lc=0; $rmk_fields->[$lc][0] ne 'END-OF-LIST'; $lc++) { if ($rmk_fields->[$lc][5] eq 'WRITE'){ $field_data = substr($current_line, ($rmk_fields->[$lc][3]-1), $rmk_fields->[$lc][2]); if ($rmk_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'L'){ $field_data =~ s/\s+$// ; #trim trailing whitespace } if ($rmk_fields->[$lc][0] eq 'R'){ $field_data =~ s/^\s+//; #trim leading whitespace } # Remove comment tp print to screen # printf "%50.50s -->%s<-- \n",$rmk_fields->[$lc][6], $field_data; printf rmk_file "%s\|", $field_data; } } printf rmk_file "\n"; } } printf "Airports %10s \n", $apt_count; printf "Runway %10s \n", $rwy_count; printf "Remarks %10s \n", $rmk_count; close(input_file); close(apt_file); close(rwy_file); close(rmk_file); Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 4 21:35:55 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:35:13 +0100 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com ([199.183.9.117]:26119 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:34:56 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29914 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:30:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:30:08 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Final Glide Computers (was: Crusoe and Mobile Linux...) Message-ID: <20000204123008.A29736@netcom17.netcom.com> References: <20000203104532.A14666@netcom9.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from admin@tet.dk on Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:00:43AM +0100 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Fri Feb 4 12:27:09 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Fri, Feb 04, 2000 at 12:00:43AM +0100, Ole Barnkob Kaas wrote: > Hello John, on 03-Feb-00, you wrote: > > Has anyone seen any 3rd party products yet? I guess these internet > > appliances will run from ROM. Anybody seen any chatter about products > > that can run other applications? (ie: your own cool stuff). This would > > be just the ticket for glider applications where batteries are your > > only power source. Useful for power planes as well of course. > > I planning such projekt. The problem is that the hw isn't ready yet - but I > hope it will be soon. The hw is an Open Source microcontroller board - Linux > In A Box (LIAB) > http://www.liab.dk Hej Ole, A good looking board. In particular, I see that the requirements on input power are quite flexible, namely 9-32 Volts DC. Sounds like three (or more) 6 Volt gel cells wired in series would work nicely. > > Background: > > Some 18 month ago my gliding club installed 2 DX50FAI flight logger in our > Ls-4b and DG300. It's so easy to accomplish a task with those computers and > you allways know if you're in gliding range of the home base. But they aren't > wery good for club usage - eg. changing the pilot name with the push buttons > is a real pain in teh butt. Using a pc is easier, but the sw really suck and > is ms-dos only. I think your comment about ergonomics are right on target. The wrong type of input mechanism can seriously detract fron the overall usability of a unit. Just curious about what your ideas are in the way of input hardware, touch screen perhaps? > Possible features to implement: > > - Logging (obvious) > - Computing glidepath and other stuff (obvious) > - Pilot recognition by keycard (can be made very simple) > - Using packet radio to send position back to ground (150 km radius) > - Displaying glider position on screen on ground (with packet radio) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is certainly one area where Linux is sure cutting edge compared to stupid 'doze, with AX.25 right in the kernel, etc. (I assume you mean amateur packet radio?) I guess the only downside, is that you would need a seperate amateur transceiver on board for this. > - A logger in all the club gliders => eliminating writing start-list on ground > - Collect all tracks in sql database and make statistics > - Display an exact copy of the logbook on screen showing *exactly* where you > should write the data. > - Your own cool app that will double /your/ glide range ;-) > - More... > > While I'm waiting for the main hw to be made available, I try to get someone > interested in this project and maybe find someone to finance it :-). As soon > as the the project starts, there will be a CSV server available (found one > for free :-). Well, count me in as interested. I'm sure there are other glider pilots on the list who might also have an interest. If you want to start a mailing list for the project, Rik Riel (our host) can probably help. > First it might be nice with a discussion of how to implement > all these features. Should it all be made in C or should it only be the basic > and the rest made in eg python? What other tools should be used? I'm also a big Python fan, mostly because it allows you to get prototypes up and running fast. You can quickly discover your design mistakes and always rewrite key parts in C that need to run fast. Personally, I haven't got that far yet. I have still been in a stage of reviewing what is available as far as hardware goes. If you haven't finalized your own opinion, there are some other options you may want to consider like PC-104 modules (see http://www.emjembedded.com/ and others), or the ucSimm module which runs ucLinux (see http://www.uclinux.org/simm/) I believe one design goal that should be embraced is portability. This may be difficult because of the specialized nature of some of the hardware involved. However, this is a real technology growth area, and the future may have some interesting surprises. The company where Linus works, has already given us a peek at what things may lie ahead... Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, because all -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | of the best things in life are free! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Sat Feb 5 01:26:55 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:26:14 +0100 Received: from [212.10.16.237] ([212.10.16.237]:53260 "HELO mail.mazzive.dk") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with SMTP id ; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 01:25:38 +0100 Received: (qmail 19184 invoked from network); 5 Feb 2000 00:18:01 -0000 Received: from bell.kimbrer.net (HELO mazzive.dk) (212.10.16.227) by www.kimbrer.net with SMTP; 5 Feb 2000 00:18:01 -0000 From: Ole Barnkob Kaas To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 02:10:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20000204123008.A29736@netcom17.netcom.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0Preview7 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: Final Glide Computers (was: Crusoe and Mobile Linux...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Hello John, on 04-Feb-00, you wrote: > > Hej Ole, > > A good looking board. In particular, I see that the requirements > on input power are quite flexible, namely 9-32 Volts DC. Sounds like > three (or more) 6 Volt gel cells wired in series would work nicely. And maybe a solarpanel to save powerusage from the cells. There should be a battery monitor circuit anyway. By the way, they are also developing a powerpc version (MPC 821 and MPC823). > >> >> Background: >> >> Some 18 month ago my gliding club installed 2 DX50FAI flight logger in our >> Ls-4b and DG300. It's so easy to accomplish a task with those computers and >> you allways know if you're in gliding range of the home base. But they >> aren't wery good for club usage - eg. changing the pilot name with the push >> buttons is a real pain in teh butt. Using a pc is easier, but the sw really >> suck and is ms-dos only. > > I think your comment about ergonomics are right on target. The wrong > type of input mechanism can seriously detract fron the overall usability > of a unit. Just curious about what your ideas are in the way of input > hardware, touch screen perhaps? > Maybe. It depends on the required precision to operate - and dont neglect the mecanical feedback you get when pressing a real button. An alternative would be soft menu buttons - like the HP-48 calculator. Also, nothing beats a turn nob - just a single one would be great. Anyway, with open source and modular design you can just write a driver for whatever bizarre hw you have or design. >> Possible features to implement: >> >> - Logging (obvious) >> - Computing glidepath and other stuff (obvious) >> - Pilot recognition by keycard (can be made very simple) >> - Using packet radio to send position back to ground (150 km radius) >> - Displaying glider position on screen on ground (with packet radio) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > This is certainly one area where Linux is sure cutting edge compared > to stupid 'doze, with AX.25 right in the kernel, etc. (I assume you mean > amateur packet radio?) I guess the only downside, is that you would need > a seperate amateur transceiver on board for this. > Maybe it's possible to build a tranciever of some digital synthesizer and stuff - I don't know. You don't need much transmitting power - actually a normal tranciever might have to be dampened. The height of our antenna is way beyond what radioamateurs ever dream of :-). Another problem might be to get a license - well at least here. >> - A logger in all the club gliders => eliminating writing start-list on >> ground - Collect all tracks in sql database and make statistics - Display >> an exact copy of the logbook on screen showing *exactly* where you should >> write the data. >> - Your own cool app that will double /your/ glide range ;-) - More... >> >> While I'm waiting for the main hw to be made available, I try to get >> someone interested in this project and maybe find someone to finance it >> :-). As soon as the the project starts, there will be a CSV server >> available (found one for free :-). > > Well, count me in as interested. I'm sure there are other glider > pilots on the list who might also have an interest. If you want to > start a mailing list for the project, Rik Riel (our host) can probably > help. > Well, if things fail here, I'll return on this issue. >> First it might be nice with a discussion of how to implement all these >> features. Should it all be made in C or should it only be the basic and the >> rest made in eg python? What other tools should be used? > > I'm also a big Python fan, mostly because it allows you to get > prototypes up and running fast. You can quickly discover your design > mistakes and always rewrite key parts in C that need to run fast. Yep, it's amazing what you can do in python... I've just been using Sketch - a vector drawing tool made in python - works real good and fast. > > Personally, I haven't got that far yet. I have still been in a stage of > reviewing what is available as far as hardware goes. If you haven't > finalized your own opinion, there are some other options you may want to > consider like PC-104 modules (see http://www.emjembedded.com/ and others), > or the ucSimm module which runs ucLinux (see http://www.uclinux.org/simm/) > I don't see any reason why it shouldn't run on other single board computers. Of cource modifications will have to be made, but hopefully the design should be modular enough to do that. The idea is that you can put together a flight computer of mostly standard componets - and extend it with sofisticated hw if you like. > I believe one design goal that should be embraced is portability. This > may be difficult because of the specialized nature of some of the hardware > involved. However, this is a real technology growth area, and the future > may have some interesting surprises. The company where Linus works, > has already given us a peek at what things may lie ahead... > I agree (as I mentioned earlier). I've focused on the LIAB because the developer lives just around the corner. Because its GPL. Because it can take dirty power. Because the expected final price was much lower than it is now :-( Anyway, I still think it is a good starting point. Also others in NJLUG (the local LUG) are working on projects with LIAB - an mp3 player and a small webbrowser with touch display. I find the latter very interesting because of the display. Regards/ /Ole Kaas - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Mon Feb 7 21:55:37 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:55:11 +0100 Received: from netcom4.netcom.com ([199.183.9.104]:8969 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:54:50 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA24966 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:45:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:45:42 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Final Glide Computers (was: Crusoe and Mobile Linux...) Message-ID: <20000207124542.A24833@netcom4.netcom.com> References: <20000204123008.A29736@netcom17.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from admin@tet.dk on Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:10:39AM +0100 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Mon Feb 7 12:43:45 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Sat, Feb 05, 2000 at 02:10:39AM +0100, Ole Barnkob Kaas wrote: >>> >>> While I'm waiting for the main hw to be made available, I try to get >>> someone interested in this project and maybe find someone to finance it >>> :-). As soon as the the project starts, there will be a CSV server >>> available (found one for free :-). >> >> Well, count me in as interested. I'm sure there are other glider >> ...snip... >Well, if things fail here, I'll return on this issue. Hi Ole, Let us know where the project ends up as far as a "home". When that time comes, I can add an entry to the "Linux Aviation HOWTO", which might help get the word out, and getting others interested in helping out. >>> First it might be nice with a discussion of how to implement all these >>> features. Should it all be made in C or should it only be the basic and the >>> rest made in eg python? What other tools should be used? >> >> I'm also a big Python fan, mostly because it allows you to get >> prototypes up and running fast. You can quickly discover your design >> mistakes and always rewrite key parts in C that need to run fast. > >Yep, it's amazing what you can do in python... I've just been using Sketch - a >vector drawing tool made in python - works real good and fast. I might be able to help with writing the code for speed to fly, glide distances, etc. I decided this was a good place to start since it would also be handy for a general purpose glider performance application with desktop environments in mind. I haven't started writing any code yet, but I've been carefully reviewing the related theory sections from Helmut Reichmann's classic book; "Cross Country Soaring". >...snip... >> I believe one design goal that should be embraced is portability. This >> may be difficult because of the specialized nature of some of the hardware >> involved. However, this is a real technology growth area, and the future >> may have some interesting surprises. The company where Linus works, >> has already given us a peek at what things may lie ahead... > >I agree (as I mentioned earlier). I've focused on the LIAB because the >developer lives just around the corner. Because its GPL. Because it can take >dirty power. Because the expected final price was much lower than it is now >:-( Anyway, I still think it is a good starting point. Also others in NJLUG >(the local LUG) are working on projects with LIAB - an mp3 player and a small >webbrowser with touch display. I find the latter very interesting because of >the display. > Having the developer nearby sounds like a big plus. And, in this industry, waiting for the best solution or best deal to come out more or less means waiting forever :^) Best Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, | "Once you have flown, -(*)- | you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there o/ \o | you have been, there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 18:20:49 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:20:23 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:56325 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:19:55 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12Iahk-0001Uw-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:15:04 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12Iahi-0000zp-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:15:02 -0700 Subject: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:15:01 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <20000207124542.A24833@netcom4.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Feb 07, 2000 12:45:42 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list First off, the group looks dead, what's up, or not up as the case may be? In the never-ending quest.... All these projects related to custom hardware etc are very interesting, but I really wonder if we'd not be a lot better off to grab semi-standard eqpt and get moving. Decent linux code sould be portable to any reasonable platform as it becomes reasonable in cost, reliability and support. More in that vein... I'm looking at 2 options right now. I already have, a 266 Mhz "Media GX" system board. They were a generation of All-in-one mothgerboards that never quite took off. It can take up to 256 Meg of ram and a has a 266 Mhz pentium clone CPU. I got it about a year ago for $39.00 including the CPU. It has everything on the motherboard. VGA, composite Video, Sound Card, Game port, parallel/serial ports and a MIDI port. I can think of several uses for everything but the Midi port. I have power supplies designed for laptops that will take 14V DC and run the computer as well as charge a backup NI-CAD pack. I think these cost me $15.00. I have 4 & 10 gig IDE disks kicking around just begging for a project. This hardware would allow a DC powered computer that could be built into a 8" X 12" X ~2" aluminum case for under $125.00 depending on how much memory you load it up with. Now the 2 options. Alltech electronics has 9" Grayscale backlit LCD displays for $89.00 They INCLUDE a standard ISA controller that looks to the system like a regular analog VGA controller. The displays themselves would need a case. They also have 8 push-button switches down each side of the display and 4 along the bottom. I'm thinking an interface based on those buttons would be very handy, many of the standard avionic displays do exactly that. These are almost turnkey type systems relative to they type of people I think we are on this list. The second option is color TFT displays that would take more work. They are $99.00. They will take composite video input. The system board I listed above will generate composite directly, there are converters out there that take standard VGA inputs, and there is info on hacking these displays to run from VGA inputs with some additional circuits and funny display configuration. Very possible under X, a pain in the butt under windows unless the card have special drivers that allow it. But than again we are talking Linux here. Either way I'm looking at about $200-250.00 for all the hardware for a kick-butt Flight management system using fairly standard and compatible PC make from common and cheap parts. Comments? Where is the group going from here? Any more word on sharing the cost of the CDs? If not maybe I should just send in $10.00 for what I figure was my share for a one time update and forget an ongoing subscription. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 18:51:41 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:51:11 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:49910 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:50:45 +0100 Received: from kdm2.dental-com.com ([12.6.48.4]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with SMTP id SAA18027 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:45:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from todd (unverified [12.6.51.79]) by kdm2.dental-com.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 13:00:17 -0500 From: "Todd Shirey" To: Subject: RE: embedded aviation computers. Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:41:56 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Is there a web site for the displays ? By the way...where do I send my share for the FAA data ? Todd Shirey Todd@Dental-Com.com > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > [mailto:owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org]On Behalf Of D.F.S. > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 12:15 PM > To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org > Subject: embedded aviation computers. > > > First off, the group looks dead, what's up, or not up as the case may be? > > > In the never-ending quest.... > > All these projects related to custom hardware etc are very interesting, > but I really wonder if we'd not be a lot better off to grab semi-standard > eqpt and get moving. > > Decent linux code sould be portable to any reasonable platform as it > becomes reasonable in cost, reliability and support. > > More in that vein... > > I'm looking at 2 options right now. > > I already have, a 266 Mhz "Media GX" system board. > > They were a generation of All-in-one mothgerboards that never > quite took off. > > It can take up to 256 Meg of ram and a has a 266 Mhz pentium clone CPU. > I got it about a year ago for $39.00 including the CPU. > It has everything on the motherboard. > VGA, composite Video, Sound Card, Game port, parallel/serial ports and > a MIDI port. > I can think of several uses for everything but the Midi port. > > I have power supplies designed for laptops that will take 14V DC and > run the computer as well as charge a backup NI-CAD pack. > I think these cost me $15.00. > > I have 4 & 10 gig IDE disks kicking around just begging for a project. > > This hardware would allow a DC powered computer that could be built > into a 8" X 12" X ~2" aluminum case for under $125.00 depending on > how much memory you load it up with. > > Now the 2 options. > Alltech electronics has 9" Grayscale backlit LCD displays for $89.00 > They INCLUDE a standard ISA controller that looks to the system like > a regular analog VGA controller. > The displays themselves would need a case. > They also have 8 push-button switches down each side of the display > and 4 along the bottom. I'm thinking an interface based on those > buttons would be very handy, many of the standard avionic displays > do exactly that. > > These are almost turnkey type systems relative to they type of > people I think we are on this list. > > The second option is color TFT displays that would take more work. > They are $99.00. > They will take composite video input. The system board I listed > above will generate composite directly, there are converters out > there that take standard VGA inputs, and there is info on hacking > these displays to run from VGA inputs with some additional circuits > and funny display configuration. Very possible under X, a pain in > the butt under windows unless the card have special drivers that > allow it. > But than again we are talking Linux here. > > Either way I'm looking at about $200-250.00 for all the hardware > for a kick-butt Flight management system using fairly standard > and compatible PC make from common and cheap parts. > > Comments? > > Where is the group going from here? > > Any more word on sharing the cost of the CDs? > If not maybe I should just send in $10.00 for what I figure was > my share for a one time update and forget an ongoing subscription. > > > Marc > > - > Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ > To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body > of a mail message to . - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 20:18:42 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:18:13 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:29947 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:17:35 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17699 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:12:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A1BC33.E507B37F@cssgroup.com> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:12:51 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list "D.F.S." wrote: > > Either way I'm looking at about $200-250.00 for all the hardware > for a kick-butt Flight management system using fairly standard > and compatible PC make from common and cheap parts. > > Comments? All this sounds great, for a custom system you build yourself and it sits in the right seat. The problem with this would be if you market these things as flight directors or tried to get it "built in" or something. If you build it, an A&P is not going to be that willing to install it. Without a demonstration to the FAA and their approval, I doubt you will get it IFR certified.. No insurance company would touch a non certified flight director for libality coverage. But if you are targeting the home built folks, and sell your rig as a kit that must be assembled.... I'd bet, that you could easily obtain VOR/ILS, NDB, and GPS inputs (if not actually build them yourself) from existing comerical equipment. Then building the necessary nav display for a HSI or VOR would be a snap. It would be neat to have a fully functional HSI display in your C152 that you could use to fly approaches, but... Why not just do all this on a lap top? Why bother with all the electronics part when you can just hook a GPS to a laptop and be done with it. Do you beielve it would be possible to have dual displays, driven by this box of yours? > Where is the group going from here? Don't know. -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 20:32:14 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:31:46 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:27909 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:31:12 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20]) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12Icks-000394-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:26:26 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12Ickr-0006SJ-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:26:25 -0700 Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:26:25 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Todd Shirey" at Feb 09, 2000 12:41:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list I'll just try to combine these and save some bandwidth. > Todd Shirey: > Is there a web site for the displays ? www.eio.com www.computerchopper.com The VGA displays with the controllers and buttons, no longer have the buttons. The sold out of the units with the frame that had buttons. They now only have the same units without the frame. In the end, it would be more trouble to build the captive button caps in the face plate then to just install complete push-buttons anyway. in any event, ignore the frame and buttins in the picture, but in my case, presume a similar scheme built into the case. > By the way...where do I send my share for the FAA data ? John Peterson bought it. Maybe he can give us the info, unless he doesn't WANT cash. > From Larry Walls: > Where do you see this computer going? Is it going to be > your flight management system (engine instruments, etc.)? As far as I can legally get away with, with portable and not legally installed electronics. Both the loran and GPS I'm getting installed have serial interface ports. I have hundreds of Trimble OEM GPS rcvr modules. A cool moving map would be nice. Part of the "Problem" in a way is the Garmin GPS 155XL I'm getting installed has many of the features I wanted to build into such a system, now many are not as big of an issue anymore. Off The top of my head... A system to calculate winds-aloft, I figure flying a complete 2 minute turn and processing the output from the GPS should do it. Granted, the garmin can do it, but it is based on user input heading and indicated speeds and altitudes. I think I could get a better solution another way. A good flight planning and waypoint generation system, which could integrate with my GPS, and run independently on the moving map within the system in addition or in place of the GPS for other people. My GPS will accept a user generated flight plan and waypoints. I'd like the added flexibility of good flight planning in the cockpit and uploading from a laptop as well. Something that could connect to duats from home, download all the info including the 20-30 pages of weather and NOTAMS and display it in a nice format in flight. Something that will drive a standard small portable printer, I don't want to trust this system that much. Flight parameter logging 100% of the time in the background. A system I could go back to and see how well an approach was flown. Exactly where did we see that glacier on the trip 2 years ago? Exactly how well was the plane performing on that trip to florida before we installed STC "X"? If you included all the parameters, including alt, temp, RPM, MAP, position, time, weight and loading, after a while you could generate and extremely accurate profile of how your plane would perform in any given situation. Something like, Either loading is Legal, but if we put X here, and moved X there, the CG would move here, and get us an additional 3 kts... Integration with the intercom system. I need to build a digital intercom system to get all the features I'm looking for, and not spend $1,000.00 The sound card in my system could record all ATC communication and allow a GUI interface to play them back, something as simple as: Xmissions: XX X XXXX x XX x XXX XX Seconds ago: 1 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 40+++ Scroll -> It could play individual segments, and it would seem simple to find the one you are after, it would stomp all over the 23 seconds some systems will save IF you push record BEFORE whatever you want to save, that is the tricky part. Audio prompts, messages and warnings would be great. Voice recognition as well as soon as or if, it becomes reasonable to implement. As close as it is to treason in this group, and as much as I hate to run MS-anything, Jeppesen has all the approach charts on CD on a subscription basis just like the paper ones. It only runs under windows, the good thing is it supports windows 3.1, and as such maybe I can get it to run under linux. That system would need to run a decent portable printer. the only problem, so far is the good portable printers will kill you in consumables, as in ~50 Cents/page. I'm still looking for the answer to that. That is a sample of ideas, I could go on for hours, but you get the idea, and I'm sure others have some killer uses I have not even considered yet. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 20:43:41 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:43:16 +0100 Received: from [212.10.16.237] ([212.10.16.237]:24333 "HELO mail.mazzive.dk") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with SMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:42:36 +0100 Received: (qmail 7052 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 19:34:58 -0000 Received: from bell.kimbrer.net (HELO mazzive.dk) (212.10.16.227) by www.kimbrer.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 19:34:58 -0000 From: Ole Barnkob Kaas To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:35:56 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: YAM 2.0Preview7 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Hello D.F.S., on 09-Feb-00, you wrote: > First off, the group looks dead, what's up, or not up as the case may be? > > 2 days since the last post - the list have been more dead than that. > In the never-ending quest.... > > All these projects related to custom hardware etc are very interesting, > but I really wonder if we'd not be a lot better off to grab semi-standard > eqpt and get moving. Sure, if you have such stuff lying around I suggest that you go ahead... > > Decent linux code sould be portable to any reasonable platform as it > becomes reasonable in cost, reliability and support. > Of course - theres no idea in making software that needs special hw to run. Actually it should be that any hw that can boot a linux kernel should be able to use the code - you might have to build your own drivers if you use very special hw. > More in that vein... > > I'm looking at 2 options right now. > > I already have, a 266 Mhz "Media GX" system board. > > They were a generation of All-in-one mothgerboards that never > quite took off. > > It can take up to 256 Meg of ram and a has a 266 Mhz pentium clone CPU. > I got it about a year ago for $39.00 including the CPU. > It has everything on the motherboard. > VGA, composite Video, Sound Card, Game port, parallel/serial ports and > a MIDI port. > I can think of several uses for everything but the Midi port. > They might never took off because the original price *wasn't* $39.00 ;-) Anyway thats good for you and it's probably the hw you wnat to use. I will most likely use different hw - unless, of course, that I can get a similar deal :-) > I have power supplies designed for laptops that will take 14V DC and > run the computer as well as charge a backup NI-CAD pack. > I think these cost me $15.00. > > I have 4 & 10 gig IDE disks kicking around just begging for a project. > With those you can also record all radio communication...;-) > This hardware would allow a DC powered computer that could be built > into a 8" X 12" X ~2" aluminum case for under $125.00 depending on > how much memory you load it up with. > > Now the 2 options. > Alltech electronics has 9" Grayscale backlit LCD displays for $89.00 > They INCLUDE a standard ISA controller that looks to the system like > a regular analog VGA controller. > The displays themselves would need a case. > They also have 8 push-button switches down each side of the display > and 4 along the bottom. I'm thinking an interface based on those > buttons would be very handy, many of the standard avionic displays > do exactly that. > > These are almost turnkey type systems relative to they type of > people I think we are on this list. > People will probably select hw that balance betwenn their economic capability and their skills to put it together. Again, the only requirement to the hw should be that it is capable of running linux and you can provide drivers for whatever devices you might want to utilize. > The second option is color TFT displays that would take more work. > They are $99.00. > They will take composite video input. The system board I listed > above will generate composite directly, there are converters out > there that take standard VGA inputs, and there is info on hacking > these displays to run from VGA inputs with some additional circuits > and funny display configuration. Very possible under X, a pain in > the butt under windows unless the card have special drivers that > allow it. > But than again we are talking Linux here. > > Either way I'm looking at about $200-250.00 for all the hardware > for a kick-butt Flight management system using fairly standard > and compatible PC make from common and cheap parts. > > Comments? > Hmm... aren't you missing something to compute - input from pressure transducers, gps, etc. I like the LIAB because it already has pins where you can connect various stuff. For an all-in-one computer you would probably need some kind of adaptor card - maybe thats not that big a problem, but it all adds up. Btw what about gps antenna - I've seen that garmin makes one with RS-232 interface. Does anyone know of something better/cheaper. The big plus of the garmin is that you just read the position - no need to mess with almanac and translation of codes into coordinates. Enough about hw - what about the sw. To start with, we need to store the data collected (assuming that gps data is easily aquired from the serial port). On "big" systems a mysql server could be used, but on systems with limited resources something lesser would most likely be better. With that in place, we already have a simple logger. Next, a user interface is needed - this could range from a few buttons and a character display to TFT displays with touch screen. The challenge is to build code that is easily adjusted to whatever hw you use. Simply said it could be a core module where you plug modules for you hw into. Each module (or driver) is made for one or more (similar) devices. Actually something like selecting compile options for a kernel. After selction of modules you can customise the setup and off you go. Would python be usefull for such project? Regards/ /Ole Kaas - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 21:06:20 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:05:53 +0100 Received: from [212.10.16.237] ([212.10.16.237]:26893 "HELO mail.mazzive.dk") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with SMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:05:15 +0100 Received: (qmail 7138 invoked from network); 9 Feb 2000 19:57:39 -0000 Received: from bell.kimbrer.net (HELO mazzive.dk) (212.10.16.227) by www.kimbrer.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 2000 19:57:39 -0000 From: Ole Barnkob Kaas To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 20:58:38 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <38A1BC33.E507B37F@cssgroup.com> X-Mailer: YAM 2.0Preview7 [020] - Amiga Mailer by Marcel Beck - http://www.yam.ch Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Hello Bob_Deep, on 09-Feb-00, you wrote: > Why not just do all this on a lap top? Why bother with all the > electronics part when you can just hook a GPS to a laptop and be done > with it. Hmm.. a lap top in a modern single seat glider - I migth be able to find a place for it *somewhere*...but the location will most likely make it unusable. Also builtin equipment looks much cooler :-) Anyway, if powerusage end size of equipment isn't a problem a lap top could be used. It's just a matter of adding support for it. Regards/ /Ole Kaas - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 21:15:11 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:14:44 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:25237 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:14:07 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02210 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:09:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209120803.00906100@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:08:03 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list You know, there is a team project to build a system of computerized flight instrumentation system. The home is the avionics list at matronics.com. We have been discussing various embedded systems and the appropriate buss to interconnect the sensors and systems. There is an extensive searchable archive of the messages. To subscribe see: http://www.matronics.com/email-list/ Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 21:16:00 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:15:31 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:24981 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:14:54 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02207 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:09:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209120404.00905660@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:04:04 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 12:26 PM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >Off The top of my head... >A system to calculate winds-aloft, I figure flying a complete >2 minute turn and processing the output from the GPS should do >it. Granted, the garmin can do it, but it is based on user >input heading and indicated speeds and altitudes. > >I think I could get a better solution another way. Yes, you can. Here is a link to an Excel spreadsheet that accepts as input three GS/track inputs from your GPS and outputs TAS and wind velocity. You can apply the formulae any way you wish. http://www.hlos.com.au/~doug.gray/home.html Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 22:02:52 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:02:25 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:2056 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:01:53 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IeAW-0002m1-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 13:57:00 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12IeAV-0001wl-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:56:59 -0700 Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:56:58 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <38A1BC33.E507B37F@cssgroup.com> from "Bob_Deep" at Feb 09, 2000 07:12:51 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > "D.F.S." wrote: > > > > > Either way I'm looking at about $200-250.00 for all the hardware > > for a kick-butt Flight management system using fairly standard > > and compatible PC make from common and cheap parts. > > > > Comments? > > All this sounds great, for a custom system you build yourself and it > sits in the right seat. The problem with this would be if you market > these things as flight directors or tried to get it "built in" or > something. If you build it, an A&P is not going to be that willing to > install it. Without a demonstration to the FAA and their approval, I > doubt you will get it IFR certified.. No insurance company would touch a > non certified flight director for libality coverage. But if you are > targeting the home built folks, and sell your rig as a kit that must be > assembled.... > > I'd bet, that you could easily obtain VOR/ILS, NDB, and GPS inputs (if > not actually build them yourself) from existing comerical equipment. > Then building the necessary nav display for a HSI or VOR would be a > snap. It would be neat to have a fully functional HSI display in your > C152 that you could use to fly approaches, but... Maybe I was not clear on this, I don't intend to sell anyting. I don't intend to certify anything. Years ago I looked into getting approval to install something like this for test and R&D purposes before moving to certification, even TAH was an incredible pain in the butt, and require releasing my airworthiness certificates and getting approval before each flight. This is for my own amusement, nothing more. I thought at least some of the people here were looking in the same direction. > Why not just do all this on a lap top? Why bother with all the > electronics part when you can just hook a GPS to a laptop and be done > with it. I have tried, I have decided laptops without severe modifications suck in the cockpit. They are unweildy and don't "Fit" anyplace. Removing the screens and building a longer cable should be possible and accomplish the same task. The cables are almost always the flexible types with the unobtainable connectors and horrible EMI (Interference) problems. The system I mentioned could be stuffed out of the way. The display and physical interface, ie. trackball and pushbuttons could be yoke and display face mounted. > > Do you beielve it would be possible to have dual displays, driven by > this box of yours? Yes. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 22:49:15 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:48:45 +0100 Received: from netcom15.netcom.com ([199.183.9.115]:2823 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:48:10 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01598 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:43:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:43:02 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) Message-ID: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dfs@xmission.com on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 12:26:25PM -0700 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Wed Feb 9 13:26:17 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 12:26:25PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > I'll just try to combine these and save some bandwidth. > [...snip...] > > > By the way...where do I send my share for the FAA data ? > John Peterson bought it. > Maybe he can give us the info, unless he doesn't WANT cash. > I'm not concerned about recovering my $36. However, I'm probably not going to shell out for the whole 1 year subscription. I do hope we can succeed in "drumming up" enough monetary support from subscribers to make that possible. I think we have about 3-4 commitments right now, (4-5 including myself). On that note, can I interest someone in "signing up" for this task? It would involve collecting the money, and writing a short letter to the FAA. The CD-ROM comes about a month before the "start date", so there would be a reasonable amount of time to compress the files and upload them to our "distribution site". This isn't a lot of work, but I'm a bit over subscribed right now; several existing and planned free sw projects, officer of my flying club, girl friend, work, and lest I forget, real flying. How about it someone? Regards, John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Installing Micro$oft Windows on a PC is -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | like putting wagon wheels on a Porsche! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 23:20:14 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:19:48 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:9734 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:19:12 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IfNS-0000eU-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:14:26 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12IfNR-0005Tc-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:14:25 -0700 Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:14:25 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Ole Barnkob Kaas" at Feb 09, 2000 08:35:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > I'm looking at 2 options right now. > > > > I already have, a 266 Mhz "Media GX" system board. > > > > They were a generation of All-in-one mothgerboards that never > > quite took off. > > > > It can take up to 256 Meg of ram and a has a 266 Mhz pentium clone CPU. > > I got it about a year ago for $39.00 including the CPU. > > It has everything on the motherboard. > > VGA, composite Video, Sound Card, Game port, parallel/serial ports and > > a MIDI port. > > I can think of several uses for everything but the Midi port. > > > > They might never took off because the original price *wasn't* $39.00 ;-) > Anyway thats good for you and it's probably the hw you wnat to use. I will > most likely use different hw - unless, of course, that I can get a similar > deal :-) My point in posting to simply show this is common as dirt and very cheap. That $39.00 was not a killer deal or something I, or anyone else here couldn't go out and match or beat in an hour on the net. Tis stuff is easy to get, by the same token, a 266 Mhz is a low end system now, and clearly was a year ago when I bought it, or it wouldn't have been $39.00. This was at a local retail store as well. > People will probably select hw that balance betwenn their economic capability > and their skills to put it together. Again, the only requirement to the hw > should be that it is capable of running linux and you can provide drivers for > whatever devices you might want to utilize. Granted, I was just afraid all the custom and embedded talk scared everyone off. IT was pretty dead here. I am hardly afraid of the embedded systems, and am looking at some dedicated subsystems for this project in fact. The intercom will be all digital, and probably be based on an 8052, or maybe 1742 Pics. I just get put off by how overpriced some, no all, of this stuff is. 4-500 bucks for systems based on 3/486 cpus that don't even hold a candle to the cheap trailing edge all-in-one board I listed above. There are SOME advantages, but I don't value any of them that much. > Hmm... aren't you missing something to compute - input from pressure > transducers, gps, etc. I like the LIAB because it already has pins where you > can connect various stuff. For an all-in-one computer you would probably need > some kind of adaptor card - maybe thats not that big a problem, but it all > adds up. There are several things I didn't mention because the post was long already, and the details were not important to the issues I mentioned. Part specifics, as a first cut, and in no real order. Dallas semi. digital Temp sensors -55 - +125 Dec C./-67-257 Deg F. $3.50 Ea. TI TLC2543CN, Eleven input 12-bit A/D - $6.50 (A/D is for Reading analog voltages, stuff like pressures from pressure transducers connected to an airspeed indicator air line, a Manifold pressure line, an oil pressure line, Cyl head and exaust temp sensors, air temp sensors, electrical system voltages.......) This one chip will take inputs from eleven such devices. There are PICs (small self contained Micro controller CPUs) with A/D built in for under $5.00. 8052 Embedded Microcontrollers, less than a buck. It would be very possible to plug a module in line with the transponder and spit the altitude the transponder is sending, out as serial data. That would require a signoff in all probability. A seperate atmospheric pressure sensor can be had for $25.00, and would be a lot more accurate than the 100' increments from the encoder. > Btw what about gps antenna - I've seen that garmin makes one with RS-232 > interface. Does anyone know of something better/cheaper. The big plus of the > garmin is that you just read the position - no need to mess with almanac and > translation of codes into coordinates. Have them. They do all that and more. I did mention them, in passing. They are trimble CM3 variants. They are smaller than a credit card. That have 2 serial ports, and will take Diff corrections. I'll sell them to anyone in the THIS group for $10.00 Ea. I won't support them, but they work just fine. Trimble support sucks when you are paying $180.00 Ea, I won't do anything more than ship them for ten. Trimble has a free C interface library to talk to them. They are a project, and will need a battery for memory backup and RS-232 Drivers if you need them, along with an antenna. > > Enough about hw - what about the sw. To start with, we need to store the data > collected (assuming that gps data is easily aquired from the serial port). On > "big" systems a mysql server could be used, but on systems with limited > resources something lesser would most likely be better. With that in place, > we already have a simple logger. Along those lines, I have Flash memory modules, they were destined for the salvage guys, and have an edge of the connector clipped off. The funny thing is the pins they clipped off are unused :-)!. They are 8 Meg modules. and about the same size as a Standard SIMM. This is what I planned to use for the logger mentioned, built with an 8052. I figured with appropriate storage and compression methods, I could get a thousand hours on a module before I needed to erase and reuse it. If I don't download it for that many years of use, I won't care if it's lost much. > Next, a user interface is needed - this > could range from a few buttons and a character display to TFT displays with > touch screen. The challenge is to build code that is easily adjusted to > whatever hw you use. That would be the issue, we may need to keep some things "Dumb" and draw a clear line between application and display/input type functions. If you want other displays rather than standard, default and automaticaly supported VGA, things change a bit. You can go all the way from 1-16 LCD displays all the way up to gas plasma heads-up display units. And the cost goes all the way from $2.00 to infinity, almost. > Simply said it could be a core module where you plug modules for you hw into. > Each module (or driver) is made for one or more (similar) devices. Actually > something like selecting compile options for a kernel. After selction of > modules you can customise the setup and off you go. > > Would python be usefull for such project? I'm afraid once you start getting to the low levels you are talking about, C is about as high as is reasonable considering the hardware. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 23:30:55 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:30:38 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:15357 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:30:18 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com (root@mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with ESMTP id XAA01187 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:25:33 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IfTD-0001eW-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:20:23 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12IfTC-0005dE-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:20:22 -0700 Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:20:22 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000209120404.00905660@127.0.0.1> from "Brian Lloyd" at Feb 09, 2000 12:04:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > At 12:26 PM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote: > Here is a link to an Excel spreadsheet that accepts as input > three GS/track inputs from your GPS and outputs TAS and wind velocity. You > can apply the formulae any way you wish. > > http://www.hlos.com.au/~doug.gray/home.html Thanks Looks like that will do it, and waste even less time flying in circles. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 23:40:37 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:39:38 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:22269 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:38:46 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com (root@mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with ESMTP id XAA02442 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:34:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IfgO-0004Ck-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2000 15:34:00 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12IfgN-0006BF-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:33:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:33:59 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> from "John C. Peterson" at Feb 09, 2000 01:43:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > I'm not concerned about recovering my $36. However, I'm probably > not going to shell out for the whole 1 year subscription. I do hope we > can succeed in "drumming up" enough monetary support from subscribers > to make that possible. I think we have about 3-4 commitments right now, > (4-5 including myself). > > On that note, can I interest someone in "signing up" for this > task? It would involve collecting the money, and writing a short letter > to the FAA. The CD-ROM comes about a month before the "start date", so > there would be a reasonable amount of time to compress the files and > upload them to our "distribution site". This isn't a lot of work, but > I'm a bit over subscribed right now; several existing and planned free > sw projects, officer of my flying club, girl friend, work, and lest I > forget, real flying. How about it someone? > I'll do it. BUT. here is my conditions if I were to do it. There are probably a hundred copies of that data kicking around out there by now. Does the FTP site containing it have statistics? Only 5 people are grateful or interested enough to cough up a few, and I DO mean a FEW, bucks to help pay for it. I figure if that is the case we should move to a CO-OP type arrangement. collect the money, and send those people copies. I guess if one of them wants to post for everyone so be it. If 6 people are still up for it, this would mean $40.00/Yr Any takers? More people would drop the cost, but we can't assume we will have more at this point. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Wed Feb 9 23:56:15 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:55:41 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:63381 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:55:14 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02864 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 14:50:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000209144312.009028a0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:43:12 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 03:14 PM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >I just get put off by how overpriced some, no all, of this stuff is. > >4-500 bucks for systems based on 3/486 cpus that don't even hold a >candle to the cheap trailing edge all-in-one board I listed above. > >There are SOME advantages, but I don't value any of them that much. The problem is quantity and market size. The market for PC motherboards that fit into standard cases is so large that the quantity of scale is enormous. When your start talking about PC-104 boards the market is so small that they must stretch the life of a system for years in order to recover development costs and to deal with the relatively small quantities (100's instead of 100,000's). So if you want a COTS, small-footprint motherboard capable of fitting inside a standard instrument package, you are going to pay a fair bit for it. BTW, this is some of what we are discussing on the avionics list. There are some who are working on hardware. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 03:22:53 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:21:57 +0100 Received: from netcom14.netcom.com ([199.183.9.114]:50695 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:21:17 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04926 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:13:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:13:00 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) Message-ID: <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dfs@xmission.com on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Wed Feb 9 18:05:53 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > > > On that note, can I interest someone in "signing up" for this > > task? ...snip... > > forget, real flying. How about it someone? > > > I'll do it. > > There are probably a hundred copies of that data kicking around > out there by now. There's only about 80 people on linux-aviation. Last word from Jim Cloos was about 5-10 downloads or so... > Only 5 people are grateful or interested enough to cough up a few, > and I DO mean a FEW, bucks to help pay for it. I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be neccessary :^) > > I figure if that is the case we should move to a CO-OP type > arrangement. collect the money, and send those people copies. > I guess if one of them wants to post for everyone so be it. > Here's two suggestions, you be the judge; 1) Make the data public, but hold it "hostage" by not even ordering it until enough people commit to supporting it with a $20 contribution, (or whatever minimum is deemed reasonable). 2) Limit the data to contributors. We would need to have Jim setup an ftp "download" account which requires a password to login. You could then e-mail the password to contributors after you receive their money. John -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, KD6EKQ | Try Linux for Intel x86, it's the -(*)- | mailto:jaypee@netcom.com | Ferarri of 32 bit operating systems! o/ \o | San Diego, CA U.S.A | See http://www.linux.org/ for info - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 03:53:44 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:52:49 +0100 Received: from austin.jhcloos.com ([206.224.83.202]:58128 "EHLO jhcloos.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 03:52:02 +0100 Received: (from cloos@localhost) by jhcloos.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA02411; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:47:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: austin.jhcloos.com: cloos set sender to cloos@jhcloos.com using -f To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> From: "James H. Cloos Jr." In-Reply-To: "John C. Peterson"'s message of "Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:13:00 -0800" Date: 09 Feb 2000 20:47:14 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 13 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list >>>>> "John" == John C Peterson writes: John> There's only about 80 people on linux-aviation. Last word from John> Jim Cloos was about 5-10 downloads or so... There are four ftps and five https of the tar files so far. Also, about four different sites grabbed individual files. -JimC -- James H. Cloos, Jr. 1024D/ED7DAEA6 E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Like this email? Click: - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 05:35:56 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 05:35:28 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net ([205.230.159.32]:55054 "EHLO sys32.hou.wt.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 05:34:56 +0100 Received: from wt.net (216-119-135-180.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.180]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA15683 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:30:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A23E9E.48585B82@wt.net> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 22:29:18 -0600 From: Keith Brown Organization: homo sapiens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i486) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list "John C. Peterson" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > > > > > On that note, can I interest someone in "signing up" for this > > > task? ...snip... > > > forget, real flying. How about it someone? > > > > > I'll do it. > > > > There are probably a hundred copies of that data kicking around > > out there by now. > > There's only about 80 people on linux-aviation. Last word from > Jim Cloos was about 5-10 downloads or so... > > > Only 5 people are grateful or interested enough to cough up a few, > > and I DO mean a FEW, bucks to help pay for it. > > I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data > which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an > e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" > on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be > neccessary :^) > > > > > I figure if that is the case we should move to a CO-OP type > > arrangement. collect the money, and send those people copies. > > I guess if one of them wants to post for everyone so be it. > > > > Here's two suggestions, you be the judge; > > 1) Make the data public, but hold it "hostage" by not even ordering > it until enough people commit to supporting it with a $20 contribution, > (or whatever minimum is deemed reasonable). > > 2) Limit the data to contributors. We would need to have Jim setup > an ftp "download" account which requires a password to login. You could > then e-mail the password to contributors after you receive their money. > > John Look, for what it's worth, I, Keith Brown, downloaded a complete copy of the data. I did it both out of a sense of curiosity, and with an eye towards possibly creating some public domain tools to use the data. I doubt anything will ever come of it, but if it does, I will give whatever I develop back to the community. I have no intention of contributing to or buying a subscription myself because I would leave that to the users of my tools to obtain current data, and I am hardly in a financial position to contribute money for something I may never use. My understanding was that an individual obtained the data on his own and out of the kindness of his heart, offered to distribute it to those interested if someone would step up and provide the network resources. Another individual did so offer, and the announcement was made. Therefore, I took this as a charitable gesture and availed myself of it. I take this opportunity and this forum to publicly thank them. Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really are. Need I say more? - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 06:54:33 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:54:06 +0100 Received: from shell13.ba.best.com ([206.184.139.144]:38922 "EHLO shell13.ba.best.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:53:29 +0100 Received: (from jerryk@localhost) by shell13.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id VAA20859; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:48:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Message-Id: <200002100548.VAA20859@shell13.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: from "D.F.S." at "Feb 9, 0 10:15:01 am" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:48:35 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > First off, the group looks dead, what's up, or not up as the case may be? > > > In the never-ending quest.... > > All these projects related to custom hardware etc are very interesting, > but I really wonder if we'd not be a lot better off to grab semi-standard > eqpt and get moving. > > Decent linux code sould be portable to any reasonable platform as it > becomes reasonable in cost, reliability and support. > *** My only problem with all of this is reliability. Whups, just a second, my PC just died..... While Linux is surely more robust than Windows of any flavor, I would still not trust it to run my flight instruments! It's just too big. Imagine, you have a standard PC, running a large OS, such as Linux or Windows. How can you convince yourself that the software is correct? There's so much of it! And PC hardware is not necessarily designed to high standards of timing and temperature range, not to mention vibration resistance. My first job in programming was for a piece of railroad equipment. The safety of life and property was involved, so the hardware design was extremely robust. Clock rates were kept low, and ample margins used for all timings. The backplane had traces on one side, a solid ground on the other, and guard traces ( all connected to ground ) between the signal traces. The clock pulses on this thing looked like out of a textbook! The engineer tested it with a 5W CB radio with a rubber duckie antenna - he stuck the antenna inside the chassis and scoped the clock lines. If he saw RF, he went back to the drawing board. The software was written to the same high standard. Our CPU spent something like 30% of its time doing integrity tests. Things like the memory and I/O were constantly being incrementally tested. Critical software items like the stack were constantly checked for reasonableness. For example, the main loop checked the stack pointer each time around - it needed to always be the same number. The stack was "guarded" with a known value somewhat below the top - if it was about to blow, that known value would change, and our program could take action. A hardware watchdog timer on a short 200-ms fuse constantly watched the system. There was no OS, and we laboriously verified every section of the program for correctness. It got so good that we had trouble fixing bugs, because the system would fix itself so fast! If something really bad happened, the system would reset, and we had it to where it could perform a full reset and be back in normal operation in about a half a second. But we gradually weeded out even all the causes of these failures. And THAT's the caliber of hardware and software I would want running my flight instruments. I don't think it's attainable with a "big" OS, even Linux. Maybe with something like VRTX or Nucleus OS, although I even have my doubts about those. At least with Linux, you get the source. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 07:16:44 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:16:05 +0100 Received: from netcom6.netcom.com ([199.183.9.106]:34823 "EHLO netcom.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 07:15:35 +0100 Received: (from jaypee@localhost) by netcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15858 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:06:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 22:06:39 -0800 From: "John C. Peterson" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) Message-ID: <20000209220639.A15680@netcom6.netcom.com> References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> <38A23E9E.48585B82@wt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38A23E9E.48585B82@wt.net>; from bahalana@wt.net on Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600 Organization: Blue Blazer Regulars X-Operating-System: SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m X-Created-Offline: Wed Feb 9 22:03:51 PST 2000 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data > > which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an > > e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" > > on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be > > neccessary :^) > > > Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep > the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data > goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list > start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or > e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then > maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really > are. > Whoa whoa.... Does a smiley face mean anything at all to you? -- ___|___ | John C. Peterson, | "Once you have flown, -(*)- | you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there o/ \o | you have been, there you long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci. - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 12:57:46 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:57:19 +0100 Received: from ns1.atww.net ([209.8.220.10]:29193 "EHLO ns1.atww.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:56:50 +0100 Received: from phzzzt.atww.net (phzzzt.atww.net [209.8.220.30]) by ns1.atww.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA32710 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:50:59 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by phzzzt.atww.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id GAA20092 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:50:49 -0500 Received: from localhost (alan@localhost) by mattress.atww.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA30954 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:49:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 06:49:59 -0500 (EST) From: "A. Reichert" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <20000209220639.A15680@netcom6.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John C. Peterson wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > > "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > > I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data > > > which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an > > > e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" > > > on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be > > > neccessary :^) > > > > > Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep > > the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data > > goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list > > start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or > > e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then > > maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really > > are. > > > Whoa whoa.... Does a smiley face mean anything at all to you? Sorry John, but I agree with Keith. Yes, there was a smiley face, but the overall tone of that note negated any attempt at humor in my mind. For the record, I have NOT downloaded any of the information at this point, although I would like to in order to examine the format and information in them. I was also one of the folks who offered FTP space if needed. However, with the manner in which that note came across, I've given serious consideration to saying goodbye to getting further involved in this project since I have no intention of coming under any further such "fire" from folks here. - Alan - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 15:38:51 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:38:25 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:20722 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:37:57 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA27741 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:32:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A2CC08.E49671EB@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:32:40 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > > > > I figure if that is the case we should move to a CO-OP type > > arrangement. collect the money, and send those people copies. > > I guess if one of them wants to post for everyone so be it. > > > > Here's two suggestions, you be the judge; > > 1) Make the data public, but hold it "hostage" by not even ordering > it until enough people commit to supporting it with a $20 contribution, > (or whatever minimum is deemed reasonable). > > 2) Limit the data to contributors. We would need to have Jim setup > an ftp "download" account which requires a password to login. You could > then e-mail the password to contributors after you receive their money. > How about letting expired data live somewhere so it can be had for free? Seems this would encourage application development by allowing developers access to the data for testing. It also would allow some of the open source flight simulators access to reasonable data to use.. In fact, have we asked anybody from those groups if they would be interested in the data and would help pay for it? Another thing we may do is give up small sections, Say by sectional, of data that's current for free, just require the collection of E-mail addresses from all requesters. Only send one sections worth of data to each valid E-mail address, unless they subscribe for a nominal fee. We need to be VERY careful that we don't end up in a liability problem with this... So we had better put the "Not intended for actual navigation" disclaimers all over anything we give away... -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 16:05:31 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:05:02 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:56306 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:04:31 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA00768 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 08:59:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A2D262.FF1F7573@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:59:46 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. References: <200002100548.VAA20859@shell13.ba.best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list And I thought the requirements of my software coustomers was bad... Shesh! I think I'd be very happy with linux in risky enviroments on good solid hardware. It may be big, but it is *very* stable. (I've never seen linux crash when the hardware is good, and I've watched it run for months on end under heavy use without any problems.) Of course I'd test the living daylights out of what ever I fielded, and the testing would be proportional to the ammount of risk involved should the application fail. Good hardware and good testing are extremly expensive things, so if you can scale down the hardware to a minimum and do away with the largeness of linux by writing your own custom application, that may be cheaper for smaller applications by making the hardware cheaper and the testing easier because the application is smaller. I seriously doubt that a complex system, such as a moving map display or flight director is going to be easily hosted on custom hardware without using some off the shelf OS for embeded systems. Jerome Kaidor wrote: > > > First off, the group looks dead, what's up, or not up as the case may be? > > > > > > In the never-ending quest.... > > > > All these projects related to custom hardware etc are very interesting, > > but I really wonder if we'd not be a lot better off to grab semi-standard > > eqpt and get moving. > > > > Decent linux code sould be portable to any reasonable platform as it > > becomes reasonable in cost, reliability and support. > > > *** My only problem with all of this is reliability. Whups, just a second, > my PC just died..... While Linux is surely more robust than Windows > of any flavor, I would still not trust it to run my flight instruments! > It's just too big. > > Imagine, you have a standard PC, running a large OS, such as Linux or > Windows. How can you convince yourself that the software is correct? > There's so much of it! And PC hardware is not necessarily designed > to high standards of timing and temperature range, not to mention vibration > resistance. > > My first job in programming was for a piece of railroad equipment. The > safety of life and property was involved, so the hardware design was > extremely robust. Clock rates were kept low, and ample margins used for > all timings. The backplane had traces on one side, a solid ground on > the other, and guard traces ( all connected to ground ) between the signal > traces. The clock pulses on this thing looked like out of a textbook! > The engineer tested it with a 5W CB radio with a rubber duckie antenna - > he stuck the antenna inside the chassis and scoped the clock lines. If > he saw RF, he went back to the drawing board. > > The software was written to the same high standard. Our CPU spent > something like 30% of its time doing integrity tests. Things like the > memory and I/O were constantly being incrementally tested. Critical > software items like the stack were constantly checked for reasonableness. > For example, the main loop checked the stack pointer each time around - it > needed to always be the same number. The stack was "guarded" with a known > value somewhat below the top - if it was about to blow, that known value > would change, and our program could take action. A hardware watchdog timer > on a short 200-ms fuse constantly watched the system. > > There was no OS, and we laboriously verified every section of the program > for correctness. It got so good that we had trouble fixing bugs, because > the system would fix itself so fast! If something really bad happened, the > system would reset, and we had it to where it could perform a full reset and > be back in normal operation in about a half a second. But we gradually > weeded out even all the causes of these failures. > > And THAT's the caliber of hardware and software I would want running my > flight instruments. I don't think it's attainable with a "big" OS, even > Linux. Maybe with something like VRTX or Nucleus OS, although I even have > my doubts about those. At least with Linux, you get the source. > > - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) > - > Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ > To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body > of a mail message to . -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 16:50:40 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:50:03 +0100 Received: from mail.me.umn.edu ([134.84.18.15]:34052 "EHLO mail.me.umn.edu") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:49:23 +0100 Received: from kenai.me.umn.edu (root@kenai.me.umn.edu [134.84.18.22]) by mail.me.umn.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA65459 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:44:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from curt@me.umn.edu) Received: (from curt@localhost) by kenai.me.umn.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA27060; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:44:32 -0600 From: "Curtis L. Olson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14498.56544.424739.790163@kenai.me.umn.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:44:32 -0600 (CST) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <38A2CC08.E49671EB@cssgroup.com> References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> <38A2CC08.E49671EB@cssgroup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Bob_Deep writes: > How about letting expired data live somewhere so it can be had for free? > > Seems this would encourage application development by allowing > developers access to the data for testing. This sounds like a reasonable suggestion. > It also would allow some of the open source flight simulators access > to reasonable data to use.. In fact, have we asked anybody from > those groups if they would be interested in the data and would help > pay for it? As a representative of the Flight Gear project (www.flightgear.org) I will just say that I have followed this whole discussion, but I just don't have the time at the moment to evaluate a new data source. We do have an existing source that works fine for now. But I do think that in the future it would be nice to be able to have the absolute latest and most correct data. Having expired data available would be nice so that when I do eventually find the time, I could grab a copy and work on my tools to parse the format. Once the support mechanism is in place, then I would be willing to chip in my fair share for the current data. If this ends up being a "now or never" proposition, someone let me know and I could ask in the flight gear circles if any one would be willing to fund flight gear's share of the cd subscription cost. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson University of MN, ME Dept. Flight Gear Project Twin Cities curt@me.umn.edu curt@flightgear.org Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 17:31:08 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:30:41 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:11790 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:30:14 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IwPH-0000TW-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:25:27 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12IwPH-0002FV-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:25:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:25:26 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "A. Reichert" at Feb 10, 2000 06:49:59 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2000, John C. Peterson wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > > > "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > > > I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data > > > > which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an > > > > e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" > > > > on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be > > > > neccessary :^) > > > > > > > Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep > > > the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data > > > goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list > > > start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or > > > e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then > > > maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really > > > are. > > > > > Whoa whoa.... Does a smiley face mean anything at all to you? > > Sorry John, but I agree with Keith. Yes, there was a smiley face, but the > overall tone of that note negated any attempt at humor in my mind. For > the record, I have NOT downloaded any of the information at this point, > although I would like to in order to examine the format and information in > them. I was also one of the folks who offered FTP space if needed. > > However, with the manner in which that note came across, I've given > serious consideration to saying goodbye to getting further involved in > this project since I have no intention of coming under any further such > "fire" from folks here. First off, give John a break, "I" was the one that set the tone for this little trist. John bought the CD, for his own purposes, and offered to give it out. He didn't want to sign up for this on an ongoing basis. I offered to do so. I will not agree to spend $250.00 bucks in cash, and an order of magnitude more than that in time to put this stuff out on the net if there is no real interest. Real interest, by my definition would include some sort of contribution. Writing free software using the data, and distributing it, and providing the site to distribute it, are 2 kinds of contribution. Another one is cash. In the end if people are unasked, prompted, nagged or billed, in the cost ends up being in the $5.00 range, I couldn't care less if everyone on the planet gets a copy. If on the other hand only 5 people are interested enough, and we end up spending $50.00/Yr Each, Why should we give it away to people who have every bit as much or as little money, free time, and resources, as us, but not enough real interest or gratitude to kick in a few bucks. I obviously over-estimated how far this data had spread so far. As soon as word of it hits the other ralated aviation lists, and news groups, including the gamer and simulator guys, it will spread like crazy. The second issue, is most people are not able to take advantage of the data without applications, most of the applications can't be written, or even envisioned without access to the data. It's a chicken & egg situation. There is a liability issue, that is a as big an issue to me as the money. People "In" on the purchase, and processing of the files, would be a much lower risk. You could make a pretty good defense that joe, who kicked in 20 bucks, knew the source of the data, the fact it was error prone, as shown by the fact we got replacement CDs within days of a release because take 1 was hosed. Not quite so easy, when Jow blow writes programs using said data, and sells it to Mike, who promptly kills himself doing something stupid, and the lawers want someone to sue. Can't sue the feds, who screwed it up. Can't blame mike himself. Go after US, You wouldn't even need to show the data was bad, just the fact you made it distributed it, and "Invited" its abuse by idiots. Maybe, from the 2 posts so far, there IS very little interest, and most of the downloads are simply curious. I don't think it either mean or nasty to simply get a small group of genuinely interested people with a actual need and interest together, and split the costs, and legaly I might Add, distribute copies to everyone in that group and be done with it. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 18:59:33 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:59:04 +0100 Received: from austin.jhcloos.com ([206.224.83.202]:15111 "EHLO jhcloos.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:58:23 +0100 Received: (from cloos@localhost) by jhcloos.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28579; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:53:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: austin.jhcloos.com: cloos set sender to cloos@jhcloos.com using -f To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> <38A2CC08.E49671EB@cssgroup.com> <14498.56544.424739.790163@kenai.me.umn.edu> From: "James H. Cloos Jr." In-Reply-To: "Curtis L. Olson"'s message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:44:32 -0600 (CST)" Date: 10 Feb 2000 11:53:37 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list >>>>> "Curtis" == Curtis L Olson writes: Curtis> Having expired data available would be nice so that when I do Curtis> eventually find the time, I could grab a copy and work on my Curtis> tools to parse the format. For the record, I do not plan on deleting what is currently at jhcloos.com/pub/NASD should new data be uploaded (presuming of course the copyright situation allows the old data to remain available; I understand that it does...). I might though need to limit really out of date data to just a tar.bz2, or even just diff(1)s for data more than a year old. I would like to see a historical record remain. -JimC -- James H. Cloos, Jr. 1024D/ED7DAEA6 E9E9 F828 61A4 6EA9 0F2B 63E7 997A 9F17 ED7D AEA6 Like this email? Click: - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 19:20:07 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:19:35 +0100 Received: from ns.mercury.bc.ca ([206.12.89.125]:14087 "EHLO soft.mercury.bc.ca") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:19:00 +0100 Received: from darth.mercury.bc.ca (darth.mercury.bc.ca [206.12.89.123]) by soft.mercury.bc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.5) with ESMTP id KAA10452 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:14:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:14:11 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Joachim Achtzehnter To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <20000209220639.A15680@netcom6.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Yesterday, John C. Petersen wrote in an email addressed to linux-aviation@nl.linux.org: > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > > > > Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep > > the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data > > goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list > > start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or > > e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then > > maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really > > are. > > > Whoa whoa.... Does a smiley face mean anything at all to you? Have not downloaded the data and probably never will as it is of no interest to me. Consider this as a word from a neutral observer. The neutral observer thinks that people should make up their mind. Either they want to form a small, private club of people who want to split the cost among themselves and then share the proceeds within the same club. Or somebody (an individual or a group) purchases a resource they would purchase for their own use anyway, and make it available to others as a public service. If the private club is what you want, please don't pretend otherwise. Joachim -- joachim@kraut.bc.ca (http://www.kraut.bc.ca) joachim@mercury.bc.ca (http://www.mercury.bc.ca) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 19:32:54 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:32:24 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:22936 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:31:51 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05269 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:27:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:23:11 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 09:25 AM 2/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Maybe, from the 2 posts so far, there IS very little interest, and most >of the downloads are simply curious. I don't think it either mean or nasty >to simply get a small group of genuinely interested people with a actual >need and interest together, and split the costs, and legaly I might Add, >distribute copies to everyone in that group and be done with it. I am one of those sitting on the fence. I was planning to use the Jeppesen data for my experimentation since they provide a sample database (incomplete but with examples of all the various record types) for testing. Jeppesen's data is the "cleanest", i.e. fewest errors in the DB. I have been told, second hand but by different consumers of the data for commercial purposes, that the FAA data has a relatively high number of errors and incorect data. Yes, your data would be interesting but not as interesting as it might otherwise be. Who is verifying its correctness? That is one of the features of the Jeppesen data that makes it more attractive. OTOH you pay a fair bit for that "feature" as well. So I am still on the fence. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 19:36:31 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:36:05 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:24472 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:35:36 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05287 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:30:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210103045.00932b30@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:30:45 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: References: <"Curtis L. Olson"'s message of "Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:44:32 -0600 (CST)"> <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> <38A2CC08.E49671EB@cssgroup.com> <14498.56544.424739.790163@kenai.me.umn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list You know what I WOULD be interested in for this data is something like the Flight Guide in my Palm Pilot. It would not be something that I would be absolutely dependent upon but would find immensely useful. (Flight Guide has "not for navigation" written all over it -- yeah, right.) The platform is not Linux, although someone has made the Linux kernel run on the Palm, but it would be a very interesting use for the data. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 19:51:58 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:51:23 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:33272 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:50:57 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA26795 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:46:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A30774.ACB6F101@cssgroup.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:46:12 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Brian Lloyd wrote: > > I am one of those sitting on the fence. I was planning to use the Jeppesen > data for my experimentation since they provide a sample database > (incomplete but with examples of all the various record types) for testing. > Jeppesen's data is the "cleanest", i.e. fewest errors in the DB. I have > been told, second hand but by different consumers of the data for > commercial purposes, that the FAA data has a relatively high number of > errors and incorect data. Let me guess.. Jeppeson copyrights the data and charges a hefty sum so they can afford to buy the libility insurance and make a bit of profit... Some how, I seriously doubt there is much improvement in the data over what the Federal Government releases. Seems to me that if Jeppeson does much more than reformat the data and clean up obvious errors, but they would be on the hook for anything they may have changed. I seriously doubt Jeppeson has more accurate sources of data than the Feds, so the data they generate will be no differant than the Fed's. I'd bet, if we wrote a converter from the Fed data to the Jeppeson format, you would have very few differances. How about we write such a software tool? For us poor folks who cannot afford to pay Jeppeson for their data and whould be content running tools with the Fed data. It would be fun to see how many changes Jeppeson really makes, and if their data is really more accurate. -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 20:03:33 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:03:07 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:44299 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:02:34 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12Iymd-0005zt-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:57:43 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12Iymc-0007io-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:57:42 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:57:41 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000210103045.00932b30@127.0.0.1> from "Brian Lloyd" at Feb 10, 2000 10:30:45 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > You know what I WOULD be interested in for this data is something like the > Flight Guide in my Palm Pilot. It would not be something that I would be > absolutely dependent upon but would find immensely useful. (Flight Guide > has "not for navigation" written all over it -- yeah, right.) The platform > is not Linux, although someone has made the Linux kernel run on the Palm, > but it would be a very interesting use for the data. > > All of these possibilities depend on the data being easily had for development and freely re-distributable. I agree 100% that the Jepp Data is "Better" in a lot of ways. I also said, I was going to use the Jepp view product, (A CD version of the approach chart & map subscription) I'm also going to have to buy the NavData for the GPS. All in all I'll be sending close to a thousand bucks a year to them. But, a cute little whiz-bang flight guide for a palm pilot, or a flight planning package, or an inflight info system distributed for free will be of little use, when people would be forced to fork $300.00 over to jeppesen to licence the data. In all probability would be quashed by jeppesen due to liability concerns about untested, unverified, or hide-the-women-and-children Open source code anybody could screw with. I think maybe we are a bit overly "Linux" centered. Write good, Portable C Code. it will compile fine under linux, and also be portable to other platforms. I don't think linux development needs to be so closed and xenophobic to prevent writing portable software, except for Windows ;-). Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 20:15:04 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:14:35 +0100 Received: from vector.edaind.com ([209.41.237.2]:18694 "EHLO vector.edaind.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:14:13 +0100 Received: by vector.edaind.com from localhost (router,SLMail V2.7); Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:03:21 +0500 Received: by vector.edaind.com from accura (209.41.237.18::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.7); Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:03:21 +0500 From: "Gregory W. Ratcliff" To: Subject: Subscriptions and pie watching Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:08:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list And my $.02 I am one of the ones willing to pitch in, and remain so. We need all types to make these things work. Some contribute cash or resources. Some contribute experience and advice. (like finding the data!) Some contribute LOTS OF TIME (JimC). Some watch. Its not one of those things where it's like a pie---if you take something you leave less pie for the rest of us. As a cash contributor, I don't consider it an issue if 10 people pitch in, then 900 people download the files, they may add something to the project. The absolute WORST thing that could happen is that we lose a single person that is willing to contribute, but we stifle it due to pie watching. Hopefully we can drop this thread. Greg Ratcliff gwr@edaind.com Columbus, Ohio (ICBM) N1697X (in the air) NZ8R (on the air) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 20:17:30 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:17:03 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:37272 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:16:33 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA05437 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:11:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210111136.009347b0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:11:36 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <38A30774.ACB6F101@cssgroup.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 06:46 PM 2/10/00 +0000, you wrote: >Brian Lloyd wrote: >> >> I am one of those sitting on the fence. I was planning to use the Jeppesen >> data for my experimentation since they provide a sample database >> (incomplete but with examples of all the various record types) for testing. >> Jeppesen's data is the "cleanest", i.e. fewest errors in the DB. I have >> been told, second hand but by different consumers of the data for >> commercial purposes, that the FAA data has a relatively high number of >> errors and incorect data. > >Let me guess.. Jeppeson copyrights the data and charges a hefty sum so >they can afford to buy the libility insurance and make a bit of >profit... That is correct. They also augment the data so you will find more in the Jepp DB than you will in the FAA DB. You can also get international data from Jepp. This is not an advertisement for Jepp data but I thought that the information would be a useful datum for people here. BTW, you can get a sample of their database for something like $99 for experiementation. >Some how, I seriously doubt there is much improvement in the data over >what the Federal Government releases. Seems to me that if Jeppeson does >much more than reformat the data and clean up obvious errors, but they >would be on the hook for anything they may have changed. I seriously >doubt Jeppeson has more accurate sources of data than the Feds, so the >data they generate will be no differant than the Fed's. If you recall, it was Jeppesen that started the process of documenting aviation data, not the CAA (now FAA). They have information that the feds do not. If you contact them they will describe how they integrate and filter the FAA data into their database. >I'd bet, if we wrote a converter from the Fed data to the Jeppeson >format, you would have very few differances. Regardless of what I have said, if that were so, I suspect that the GPS manufacturers would opt for the less expensive FAA data. They don't and that is universal. Why do *ALL* the manufacturers use Jepp data? There must be a reason. >How about we write such a software tool? For us poor folks who cannot >afford to pay Jeppeson for their data and whould be content running >tools with the Fed data. The Jepp data format is essentially the ARINC format (fixed-length, mainframe-magtape-oriented data) with a few extensions. If you get the Jepp sample kit they include doc on all the record formats so you would have that info. It may be that the FAA is already using that format since it is considered to be a standard in the aviation world. >It would be fun to see how many changes Jeppeson really makes, and if >their data is really more accurate. With that many records it would be tough to prove unless you knew what to look for. Even so it sounds like an interesting project. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 20:24:52 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:24:23 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:39320 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:23:50 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA05462 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:18:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210111852.00924b30@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 11:18:52 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Flight guide in Palm Pilot discussion In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000210103045.00932b30@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 11:57 AM 2/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >> You know what I WOULD be interested in for this data is something like the >> Flight Guide in my Palm Pilot. >All of these possibilities depend on the data being easily had for development >and freely re-distributable. > >I agree 100% that the Jepp Data is "Better" in a lot of ways. >I also said, I was going to use the Jepp view product, >(A CD version of the approach chart & map subscription) >I'm also going to have to buy the NavData for the GPS. >All in all I'll be sending close to a thousand bucks a year >to them. Well, we know they aren't going broke. ;^) >But, a cute little whiz-bang flight guide for a palm pilot, or a >flight planning package, or an inflight info system distributed for >free will be of little use, when people would be forced to fork >$300.00 over to jeppesen to licence the data. That is why I thought about a Flight-Guide-like product for the Palm Pilot as a good use for the FAA data. In that case you are less worried about the absolute accuracy of the data. >In all probability would be quashed by jeppesen due to liability >concerns about untested, unverified, or hide-the-women-and-children >Open source code anybody could screw with. They can say what they want to say. If they operate on a common data format the buyer would be able to use whichever data source he/she preferred. >I think maybe we are a bit overly "Linux" centered. >Write good, Portable C Code. it will compile fine under linux, and >also be portable to other platforms. For that I would write in Java these days. Having supported an application on 12 different platforms (most UNIX with with NT thrown in for good measure) I can attest to the "portability" of C being greatly overblown. My test matrix was huge. I had to not only test for correctness on each platform but I also had to verify that changes in one didn't break anything else. Painful. >I don't think linux development needs to be so closed and xenophobic >to prevent writing portable software, except for Windows ;-). Windows is -*< E V I L >*-! Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 20:27:31 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:27:10 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:20491 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:26:41 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20]) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12IzA3-0001uL-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:21:55 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12Iyx0-0000ck-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:08:26 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:08:26 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Achtzehnter" at Feb 10, 2000 10:14:11 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > Have not downloaded the data and probably never will as it is of no > interest to me. Consider this as a word from a neutral observer. > > The neutral observer thinks that people should make up their mind. Either > they want to form a small, private club of people who want to split the > cost among themselves and then share the proceeds within the same club. Or > somebody (an individual or a group) purchases a resource they would > purchase for their own use anyway, and make it available to others as a > public service. > > If the private club is what you want, please don't pretend otherwise. > > Joachim Nobody is "pretending" anything. We are tyring to come to terms with WHO wants this info, and who is willing to put thier money wher their mouth is. The original intent was to gather money on a voluntary basis, That does not look like it will happen. If people won't volunteer, and this becomes an assesment against half a dozen people, because others refuse to participate, why go to the trouble, and legal risk of handing it to them on a silver platter? The whining, and bitching about someone ELSE not just paying the $250.00/Yr themselves and Posting it for the public is running about a 4:1 ratio over people genuinely interested. There are a few people here, who are serious about getting the info. If that is what I comes to, mail me directly and well get a group together seperate from the list, and let the mail volume here fall back to zero. As of late, it has been almost all heat, and no light anyway. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Thu Feb 10 23:30:45 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:30:03 +0100 Received: from office.nextbus.com ([216.240.36.150]:44778 "EHLO fedora.corp.nextbus.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:29:28 +0100 Received: from mail.office.nextbus.com (andy@turban.corp.nextbus.com [192.168.1.105]) by fedora.corp.nextbus.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15254 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:24:39 -0800 Message-ID: <38A33AA6.3271911E@mail.office.nextbus.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:24:38 -0800 From: Andy Ross Organization: NextBus Information Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20000210111136.009347b0@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Brian Lloyd wrote: > >I'd bet, if we wrote a converter from the Fed data to the Jeppeson > >format, you would have very few differances. > > Regardless of what I have said, if that were so, I suspect that the GPS > manufacturers would opt for the less expensive FAA data. They don't and > that is universal. Why do *ALL* the manufacturers use Jepp data? There > must be a reason. Thank you, exhibit A. :) I think you just showed us the reason: Jepp data is _perceived_ as more accurate (because everybody uses it, of course). Since the database cost is a small fraction of the unit cost for a GPS receiver, and especially since the maintenance cost of upgrades isn't the problem of the manufacturer (the user has to pay for them), the manufacturers just use Jepp data by default and write off the extra cost as "advertising". Mind you, _I_ haven't looked at the data for discrepancies, but I'd be a little worried if the government data was actually _wrong_. It's the same data that goes into the NOS charts and approach plates, isn't it? Since NOS users aren't flying into the ground any more than Jepp folks (I presume -- if this isn't true I smell a HUGE class action lawsuit brewing), I argue that this is an existance proof that the Jeppesson database is no better than the FAA one. Oh, and I'm one of the silent downloaders. I'm more than happy to pay for my share of the CD, although I'm not terribly interested in a subscription service. Just tell me where to send the check. Andy -- Andrew J. Ross NextBus Information Systems Software Engineer Emeryville, CA Andrew.Ross@nextbus.com http://www.nextbus.com (510)652-1303x19 Why Wait? - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 00:07:43 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:07:16 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:17817 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:06:59 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA06146 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:02:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210150204.00939520@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:02:04 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Jepp vs. FAA data quality (was: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...)) In-Reply-To: <38A33AA6.3271911E@mail.office.nextbus.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20000210111136.009347b0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 02:24 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Andy Ross wrote: >I think you just showed us the reason: Jepp data is _perceived_ as more >accurate (because everybody uses it, of course). Since the database >cost is a small fraction of the unit cost for a GPS receiver, and >especially since the maintenance cost of upgrades isn't the problem of >the manufacturer (the user has to pay for them), the manufacturers just >use Jepp data by default and write off the extra cost as "advertising". Well, that isn't how it worked last time I looked (about 1.5 years ago -- remember that I started this process with Jepp for my project). The manufacturer has to specify the subset of data that they want from Jeppesen. Jepp then cuts them a custom tape. The manufacturer then has to burn their own datacards or floppies and then keep track of who has received them so that they can send their per-user payments back to Jepp. It is ugly and I would bet that the manufacturers would drop Jepp like a hot potato if they could. In fact, Jepp was working on a deal whereby they would sell database updates directly to the end-user thus reducing the hassle for the manufacturers and increasing their (Jepp's) margins. If they were doing that then I would agree with you but I haven't noticed that Jepp was doing direct sales of database info to the end users ... yet. I suspect that the manufacturers decided that they still want a piece of the action since it generates recurring revenue for them. >Mind you, _I_ haven't looked at the data for discrepancies, but I'd be >a little worried if the government data was actually _wrong_. It's the >same data that goes into the NOS charts and approach plates, isn't it? No, it is not, at least it wasn't a year or so ago. Like you, I assumed that the NOS charts and plates were generated from the FAA data so I contacted the folks at cartography in NOS (the folks who generate the NOS charts). At that time the NOS charts and approach plates were still hand-generated. But we know that the federal government works at a blinding pace adopting new technology so I am certain that you are right and they have switched over to automatic generation of charts and approach plates from the database at this point. :^Q >Since NOS users aren't flying into the ground any more than Jepp folks >(I presume -- if this isn't true I smell a HUGE class action lawsuit >brewing), I argue that this is an existance proof that the Jeppesson >database is no better than the FAA one. The fatal flaw in your proof is that you assume that the feds are doing something rational and using their own database without correction. And even so, you are probably assuming that, if the guys drawing the charts noted a discrepency in the data, the corrections or at least notification of the errors would be forwarded back to the keepers of the database. Government coordination for the purposes of efficiency and correctness? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 00:56:57 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:56:28 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:59909 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:55:48 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12J3MU-0002H8-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:51:02 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12J3MR-0003bX-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:50:59 -0700 Subject: Re: Jepp vs. FAA data quality (was: Re: Subscription to NASD To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:50:59 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000210150204.00939520@127.0.0.1> from "Brian Lloyd" at Feb 10, 2000 03:02:04 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > At 02:24 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Andy Ross wrote: > >I think you just showed us the reason: Jepp data is _perceived_ as more > >accurate (because everybody uses it, of course). Since the database > >cost is a small fraction of the unit cost for a GPS receiver, and > >especially since the maintenance cost of upgrades isn't the problem of > >the manufacturer (the user has to pay for them), the manufacturers just > >use Jepp data by default and write off the extra cost as "advertising". > > Well, that isn't how it worked last time I looked (about 1.5 years ago -- > remember that I started this process with Jepp for my project). The > manufacturer has to specify the subset of data that they want from > Jeppesen. Jepp then cuts them a custom tape. The manufacturer then has to > burn their own datacards or floppies and then keep track of who has > received them so that they can send their per-user payments back to Jepp. > It is ugly and I would bet that the manufacturers would drop Jepp like a > hot potato if they could. In fact, Jepp was working on a deal whereby they > would sell database updates directly to the end-user thus reducing the > hassle for the manufacturers and increasing their (Jepp's) margins. If > they were doing that then I would agree with you but I haven't noticed that > Jepp was doing direct sales of database info to the end users ... yet. I > suspect that the manufacturers decided that they still want a piece of the > action since it generates recurring revenue for them. Unless I'm not understanding your statements the world has changed a lot since then. All, the major mfgrs, of current aviation GPS direct you straight to Jepp for the data, except King. (or whatever the full name of the company is today) King appears to license the data and take a cut themselves, the end prices look about the same. Go look at the Jepp NavData Site. They list almost every current mfgr and model, and sell directly to the users. Go look at the info on the Garmin and UPS (or whoever THEY are today) web sites, They only include subscription information, and maybe a current data card which will be outdated by the time your unit is installed and certified. You go to Jeppesen for the update service. In a way, they may be betting the consumer views jeppesen as a better bet long term for updates, than a hole in the wall here-today-gone-tomorrow, electronics mfgr. How do you know They (The Mfgr) won't drop support for the 155 when the XL comes out, how do you know they won't fold up or be bought out tomorrow. If they do, and you are not able to keep the databases current, your $10,000 IFR certified GPS is now worthless, or worth about the $495, a non-certified handheld cheapie costs. Jepps sole reason for being is to sell the data, as long as people are out there buying the updates, Jepp can still keep raking in the $600/Yr Each. That is my perception, and was in fact somewhat of a selling point in my search for a GPS rcvr. Mind you, I'd have paid an extra thousand bucks for something that would take this CD in question, and update itself. That was not an option, and would probably be a difficult thing to pull off anyway. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 01:00:32 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:00:10 +0100 Received: from sys32.hou.wt.net ([205.230.159.32]:36356 "EHLO sys32.hou.wt.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:59:38 +0100 Received: from wt.net (216-119-135-131.ipset15.wt.net [216.119.135.131]) by sys32.hou.wt.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA07981 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:54:53 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A34F95.6FEF8804@wt.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:53:57 -0600 From: Keith Brown Organization: homo sapiens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i486) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <20000209134302.A300@netcom15.netcom.com> <20000209181300.A4566@netcom14.netcom.com> <38A23E9E.48585B82@wt.net> <20000209220639.A15680@netcom6.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list "John C. Peterson" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 10:29:18PM -0600, Keith Brown wrote: > > "John C. Peterson" wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 09, 2000 at 03:33:59PM -0700, D.F.S. wrote: > > > I know Jim does have a list of host names that have ftp-ed the data > > > which could be matched with list subscribers. We could send out an > > > e-mail to those that have downloaded the data, and lay "a guilt trip" > > > on them. But, you people know who you are, so this shouldn't be > > > neccessary :^) > > > > > Now, I have no problem with an honest solicitation of contributions to keep > > the data current, and if these contributions are not forthcoming, and the data > > goes stale or disappears, well then so be it. But when people on this list > > start talking about revealing the identities of downloaders to extort them, or > > e-mailing guilt trips for downloading what was supposedly freely given, then > > maybe they need to step back and take a look at what their motivations really > > are. > > > Whoa whoa.... Does a smiley face mean anything at all to you? Well, you know what they say about electronic text communication. Be very careful what you say and how you word it because it's easily misunderstood without the nuances of facial expression and body language. Yes, I missed the smiley face. Sorry. I guess what made my reaction even more indignant was how out of character the proposals seemed with the generally friendly and helpful atmosphere on this list. I guess that should have been my clue that some leg pulling was going on... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 01:19:04 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:18:28 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:36505 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:18:04 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06339 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:13:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210161259.00921e70@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:12:59 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Jepp vs. FAA data quality (was: Re: Subscription to NASD In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000210150204.00939520@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 04:50 PM 2/10/00 -0700, you wrote: >Unless I'm not understanding your statements the world has changed a lot >since then. >All, the major mfgrs, of current aviation GPS direct you straight to >Jepp for the data, except King. (or whatever the full name of the company >is today) >King appears to license the data and take a cut themselves, the end prices >look about the same. Ahh, OK. Jepp was talking about doing that. I wasn't aware it had happened. I just ordered a new database update for several of my GPSs (all Apollo units) and they shipped me direct. I notice that you didn't mention the NOS charts so I guess you don't know if they have changed their procedures and started using the FAA data directly to produce the charts. >Go look at the Jepp NavData Site. >They list almost every current mfgr and model, and sell directly to the users. Ahh, OK. >Go look at the info on the Garmin and UPS (or whoever THEY are today) web >sites, They only include subscription information, and maybe a current >data card which will be outdated by the time your unit is installed and >certified. >You go to Jeppesen for the update service. Odd, as I just ordered an update for my Apollo (UPS) units and they didn't say a word about talking directly to Jepp. I will go look. >In a way, they may be betting the consumer views jeppesen as a better bet >long term for updates, than a hole in the wall here-today-gone-tomorrow, >electronics mfgr. Maybe. Eliminating the middleman usually improves the bottom line for everyone. >How do you know They (The Mfgr) won't drop support for the 155 when the >XL comes out, how do you know they won't fold up or be bought out tomorrow. > >If they do, and you are not able to keep the databases current, your $10,000 >IFR certified GPS is now worthless, or worth about the $495, a non-certified >handheld cheapie costs. Good point.n >Jepps sole reason for being is to sell the data, as long as people are out >there buying the updates, Jepp can still keep raking in the $600/Yr Each. > >That is my perception, and was in fact somewhat of a selling point in >my search for a GPS rcvr. I agree. It made sense to me a year ago and it still makes sense to me. >Mind you, I'd have paid an extra thousand bucks for something that would >take this CD in question, and update itself. >That was not an option, and would probably be a difficult thing to pull >off anyway. As I indicated, the quality of the FAA data is questionable, at least in my mind as a result of previous research. If it is flight-critical data, I am going to stick with Jepp if for no other reason than Jepp has a powerful motivator to give good and correct data -- liability. You can't sue the federal government so they have no real motivator to really and truely produce accurate data. OTOH, the FAA data is probably useful for VFR ops and would be convenient if I could get it into my Palm IIIx which is on my belt when I have my clothes on. ;^) Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 01:46:13 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:45:36 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:44953 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:45:05 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06407 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:40:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000210164011.00920c10@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:40:11 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Jepp vs. FAA data quality (was: Re: Subscription to NASD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000210161259.00921e70@127.0.0.1> References: <3.0.6.32.20000210150204.00939520@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list >>Go look at the Jepp NavData Site. >>They list almost every current mfgr and model, and sell directly to the >>users. That is unless you have a UPS/IIMorrow/Apollo unit. :^) At your suggestion I went and looked. UPS/IIMorrow is conspicuous in its absence. Oh well ... Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 16:43:16 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:42:26 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:56061 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:41:41 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA16916 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:36:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A42C98.9F28F159@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:36:56 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: <3.0.6.32.20000210102311.009356b0@127.0.0.1> <3.0.6.32.20000210111136.009347b0@127.0.0.1> <38A33AA6.3271911E@mail.office.nextbus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Andy Ross wrote: > > Brian Lloyd wrote: > > >I'd bet, if we wrote a converter from the Fed data to the Jeppeson > > >format, you would have very few differances. > > > > Regardless of what I have said, if that were so, I suspect that the GPS > > manufacturers would opt for the less expensive FAA data. They don't and > > that is universal. Why do *ALL* the manufacturers use Jepp data? There > > must be a reason. > > Thank you, exhibit A. :) > > I think you just showed us the reason: Jepp data is _perceived_ as more > accurate (because everybody uses it, of course). Since the database > cost is a small fraction of the unit cost for a GPS receiver, and > especially since the maintenance cost of upgrades isn't the problem of > the manufacturer (the user has to pay for them), the manufacturers just > use Jepp data by default and write off the extra cost as "advertising". > > Mind you, _I_ haven't looked at the data for discrepancies, but I'd be > a little worried if the government data was actually _wrong_. It's the > same data that goes into the NOS charts and approach plates, isn't it? > Since NOS users aren't flying into the ground any more than Jepp folks > (I presume -- if this isn't true I smell a HUGE class action lawsuit > brewing), I argue that this is an existance proof that the Jeppesson > database is no better than the FAA one. I thought that the Jeppeson approach plates, though different looking than the NOS ones, where functionally equivalent. If memory serves, they added a bit more information to their approach plates, but nothing you could not figure out from the NOS charts you should have in the plane anyway. I also believe that it's the FAA that approves ALL instrument approaches, going so far as to actually fly them in a specially equipped aircraft to verify that everything works together right. Does Jeppeson verify approaches? Do they go out and spend the money to fly them? No they don't. They got their start by making approach plates that went into binders so they where easier to open. The paperback NOS plates got difficult to manage in-flight and if you ever dropped your NOS book, it was going to take some time to look up the approach plate again. Of course you could just rip out the plate from the book, but you could not put it back. Jeppeson just started to print the changed plates, not entire books, and gave you a neat binder to put them in that made it easy to get them in and out... It went from there to this "electronic" format. This type of data did not become popular until we started seeing LORAN units, GPS and Internal Nav stuff, but Jeppeson was there when the air carriers started looking for this data in a consistent format, so their format got adopted by the "big boys" long before the average Joe could afford a Loran or GPS unit for their very own, we just where along for the ride. It's the government data that is the "legal" data. You must fly your Instrument approach using the government verified data on the current approach plate with any NOTAMs taken into account, or it's against the rules. If Jeppeson takes liberties with the data, and "fixes" something in the government's certified data, then you cannot legally use their approach plate. Now if they ADD information to the government's data, that's OK.. They just cannot change the certified approaches in any way. After thinking about it, I believe I know what Jeppeson basically does. They provide a consistent input format. A Jeppeson database is a standard well known format, that will not change. The government may change their data format and different countries may have vastly different data formats, ranging from paper maps to databases. Jeppeson also crosses other government sources of information and adds this to their data. Thus the "additions" to the standard approach plates. I seem to remember where they added the local center's comm frequency so if you miss the approach you will have it written some where and some other "nice but not necessary" information. This is all for "in the states" data. Outside of the states, Jeppeson does have some good data, and again in the same format. Jeppeson is selling data in a consistent format from various government sources. I seriously doubt they are making any modifications to the data that they receive from the various governments around the world. What does this mean for us? Well, I'm basicly saying that if we can deliver a means for pilots to print or view approach plates let's say. Then if we have the certified data from the fed, you should be able to legaly use this data to fly by in IFR conditions, assuming we can faithfuly render the data. This will eliminate the need to keep a bookcase of NOS charts in the right seat, and you can simply print all possible charts over your intended route, or for the area you normally fly. If you have a computer on board, then you can load it with the data for the region you could possibly ever fly, and have a ready referance of flyable charts just a few keystrokes away, should you get in a spot with the weather closing in. I suspect that the FAA would be VERY picky about software that displayed and printed such information, and would want to certify such software before allowing it to be used for real IFR operations. But, I also suspect that the NOS folks would be VERY interasted in the software, and perhaps they would sponcer a FAA Review and publish "approved" versions of the open source. -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 17:32:31 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:31:49 +0100 Received: from shell13.ba.best.com ([206.184.139.144]:45580 "EHLO shell13.ba.best.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:30:53 +0100 Received: (from jerryk@localhost) by shell13.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id IAA26097; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:26:01 -0800 (PST) From: Jerome Kaidor Message-Id: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: from "D.F.S." at "Feb 9, 0 03:14:25 pm" To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:26:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list *** I have a thought for a small embedded project: As it happens, I'm installing a GNS430 in my airplane. Perusal of the '430 manual reveals that there is an input for OAT. The '430 is already connected to the transponder bus, so it knows the pressure altitude. With OAT input, it would also know density altitude. In fact, one can read the density altitude off on a screen. There does not seem to be a dedicated pin for OAT input. Rather, this information comes in as part of an ARINC serial data stream. Sure would be cool if there was a pod with an OAT sensor and an ARINC output. Unfortunately, we're talking airliner stuff here - the pod that does it is called an "air data computer", weighs a ton, and costs a king's ransom. Now, we're talking about a job that could be accomplished handily by an 8751 hooked to an A/D. Heck, the A/D could consist of a ladder network of resistors and a comparitor. I bet even a PIC could do it. - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com ) - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 17:56:52 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:55:55 +0100 Received: from vector.edaind.com ([209.41.237.2]:31751 "EHLO vector.edaind.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:55:12 +0100 Received: by vector.edaind.com from localhost (router,SLMail V2.7); Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:49:58 +0500 Received: by vector.edaind.com from accura (209.41.237.18::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.7); Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:49:58 +0500 From: "Gregory W. Ratcliff" To: Subject: RE: embedded aviation computers. Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:55:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Good idea, how hard is arinc to implement? I bet I have the hardware kicking around here to do this, cheaply. Greg Ratcliff -----Original Message----- From: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org [mailto:owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org]On Behalf Of Jerome Kaidor Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 11:26 AM To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Cc: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. *** I have a thought for a small embedded project: As it happens, I'm installing a GNS430 in my airplane. Perusal of the '430 manual reveals that there is an input for OAT. The '430 is already connected to the transponder bus, so it knows the pressure altitude. With OAT input, it would also know density altitude. In fact, one can read the density altitude off on a screen. of a mail message to . - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 17:58:23 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:57:38 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:39067 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:56:47 +0100 Received: from localhost (brian@localhost) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08000 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:51:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Lloyd X-Sender: brian@keith.fenris.net To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. In-Reply-To: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Jerome Kaidor wrote: > *** I have a thought for a small embedded project: > > As it happens, I'm installing a GNS430 in my airplane. Perusal of the > '430 manual reveals that there is an input for OAT. The '430 is already > connected to the transponder bus, so it knows the pressure altitude. With > OAT input, it would also know density altitude. In fact, one can read > the density altitude off on a screen. > > There does not seem to be a dedicated pin for OAT input. Rather, this > information comes in as part of an ARINC serial data stream. Right. It is ARINC-429 data stream. The problem with -429 is that it doesn't support multiplexing of data so you need a dedicated port for each device. This has given rise to router boxes that transfer the data to where it is wanted. This is 1960's technology. FYI, the Airbus and the new B-767 are using Ethernet for this kind of data. > Sure would be cool if there was a pod with an OAT sensor and an ARINC > output. Unfortunately, we're talking airliner stuff here - the pod that > does it is called an "air data computer", weighs a ton, and costs a king's > ransom. Now, we're talking about a job that could be accomplished handily > by an 8751 hooked to an A/D. Heck, the A/D could consist of a ladder > network of resistors and a comparitor. I bet even a PIC could do it. This is the kind of stuff we are working on over on the avionics mailing list. The goal is to nail down the buss and the messages so that people are free to do whatever implementation they want (use Linux as the OS for your embedded system if you want) and yet still be compatible with what the other guys are doing. The kinds of things under discussion for development are: * dedicated display/processor module(s) * engine data collection module * air data collection module * various nav sensors Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com +1.530.676.6513 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 18:01:42 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:00:34 +0100 Received: from vector.edaind.com ([209.41.237.2]:32519 "EHLO vector.edaind.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:59:50 +0100 Received: by vector.edaind.com from localhost (router,SLMail V2.7); Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:54:49 +0500 Received: by vector.edaind.com from accura (209.41.237.18::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.7); Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:54:48 +0500 From: "Gregory W. Ratcliff" To: Subject: apollo not NMEA! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:00:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list I got this message back today from ups/apollo when I tried to hook Vista (Moving map stuff) up to the serial port on the GX55. Arggh---I'm thinking this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, but the fact is, after sniffing the data from the GX55 it doesn't look like NMEA much (compared to the foster loran and my delorme tripmate) Anyone have a GX-55? Greg Ratcliff ***************from ups/apollo below***************************** The GX-55 does NOT send out NMEA serial data. That format is a marine format which is not used in aviation units other than portable, handheld devices which aren't certified for navigation. All aviation units send an ASCII format. You can find the actual format sent by going to our website, http://www.upsat.com, and selecting "downloads" from the menu bar. Once there select the GX documentation and then the GX-55 Installation manual. Open the manual and go to Appendix E where the complete format description is explained. Regards, John Hendrickson Technical Support - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 18:26:38 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:25:46 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:12551 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:24:57 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12JJjl-0003r9-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:20:09 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12JJjj-0004Iu-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:20:07 -0700 Subject: Re: embedded aviation computers. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:20:07 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> from "Jerome Kaidor" at Feb 11, 2000 08:26:00 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > *** I have a thought for a small embedded project: > > As it happens, I'm installing a GNS430 in my airplane. Perusal of the > '430 manual reveals that there is an input for OAT. The '430 is already > connected to the transponder bus, so it knows the pressure altitude. With > OAT input, it would also know density altitude. In fact, one can read > the density altitude off on a screen. > > There does not seem to be a dedicated pin for OAT input. Rather, this > information comes in as part of an ARINC serial data stream. > > Sure would be cool if there was a pod with an OAT sensor and an ARINC > output. Unfortunately, we're talking airliner stuff here - the pod that > does it is called an "air data computer", weighs a ton, and costs a king's > ransom. Now, we're talking about a job that could be accomplished handily > by an 8751 hooked to an A/D. Heck, the A/D could consist of a ladder > network of resistors and a comparitor. I bet even a PIC could do it. > Undoubtedly, I listed some parts that could easily do this in one of my other posts. Dallas Semi has some digital output temp sensors, and unless I'm mistaken the Airinc 429 interface should be doable with differentail line drivers and uControllers. It was not as simple as RS-232 serial data run thru RS-422 line drivers. Oh well. It runs at 2 speeds ~12.5 Khz and 100 Khz. The ARINC spec is copyrighted, but these guys have an "Interpretation" http://www.1553.com/ While you are at it, all with all the work of getting an arinc interface tested and working, you could use a A/D to read both a Temp Sensor and Pressure sensor, and build a dedicated display. Outside Air Temp. Pressure Altitude. Density Altitude. Vertical Speed. Altitude Alert. Zulu Time. Stick another pressure sensor out in the airflow and get IAS & TAS as well. There are atmospheric pressure transducers built for weather research on the surplus market for ~$1.50. BG Micro has LM34DZ Precision Temp sensors for $1.19. They have 20 column by 2 row Backlight LCD display for $2.25. Pics up to the task could be had for under 5 bucks. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 18:38:45 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:37:53 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:63759 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 18:37:02 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12JJvU-000618-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:32:16 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12JJvT-0004jE-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0700 Subject: Re: apollo not NMEA! To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Gregory W. Ratcliff" at Feb 11, 2000 12:00:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > I got this message back today from ups/apollo when I tried to > hook Vista (Moving map stuff) up to the serial port on the GX55. > > Arggh---I'm thinking this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, No offense intended, but it looks spot on to me. Did you look at the reference he mentioned? It looks all spelled out to me. > but the fact is, after sniffing the data from the GX55 it doesn't > look like NMEA much (compared to the foster loran and my > delorme tripmate) > > Anyone have a GX-55? I don't but I do have the document he mentioned. This stuff was a large part of my purchase decision for a new GPS. I presume Vista is a PC type product. I guess you could see if it has a converter you could add, or worse case, you could build an external converter based on a PIC (Again). > > Greg Ratcliff > > > ***************from ups/apollo below***************************** > > > The GX-55 does NOT send out NMEA serial data. That format is a marine > format which is not used in aviation units other than portable, handheld > devices which aren't certified for navigation. All aviation units send an > ASCII format. You can find the actual format sent by going to our website, > http://www.upsat.com, and selecting "downloads" from the menu bar. Once > there select the GX documentation and then the GX-55 Installation manual. > Open the manual and go to Appendix E where the complete format description > is explained. > > Regards, > John Hendrickson > Technical Support - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 19:09:15 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:07:26 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:52123 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:05:59 +0100 Received: from localhost (brian@localhost) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08196 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:01:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Lloyd X-Sender: brian@keith.fenris.net To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <38A42C98.9F28F159@cssgroup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Bob_Deep wrote: > Andy Ross wrote: > > I thought that the Jeppeson approach plates, though different looking > than the NOS ones, where functionally equivalent. They are. I use both interchangeably. > If memory serves, > they added a bit more information to their approach plates, but nothing > you could not figure out from the NOS charts you should have in the > plane anyway. That is correct. > I also believe that it's the FAA that approves ALL instrument > approaches, going so far as to actually fly them in a specially equipped > aircraft to verify that everything works together right. Does Jeppeson > verify approaches? Do they go out and spend the money to fly them? No > they don't. Verification of the approach is independent of generating the charts. You seem to be arguing that the NOS plates/charts are better than Jeppesen. I don't think you can support that statement. > They got their start by making approach plates that went into binders so > they where easier to open. No, Jeppesen got their start by Mr. Jeppesen actually producing the first charts for making low-visibility arrivals into the airports to which he flew. There were no charts in those days. He then began sharing them with his fellow pilots. All this happened before the CAA ever got involved. > The paperback NOS plates got difficult to > manage in-flight and if you ever dropped your NOS book, it was going to > take some time to look up the approach plate again. You have the horse before the cart. Jeppesen charts were not produced in response to the NOS charts. It was actually the other way around. > It went from there to this "electronic" format. This type > of data did not become popular until we started seeing LORAN units, GPS > and Internal Nav stuff, but Jeppeson was there when the air carriers > started looking for this data in a consistent format, so their format > got adopted by the "big boys" long before the average Joe could afford a > Loran or GPS unit for their very own, we just where along for the ride. Until very recently (if it has ever changed and I don't think it has ... yet) the charts were hand-drawn. They were not generated electronically by automatically compiling the data about locations, waypoints, courses, etc. The early "electronic" approach plates were just scanned images of the plates since that was the *only* acceptable source of approach data. Sure it makes sense to shift off to approach plates synthesized from the data (the amount of data required would be a lot smaller too). One of the main reasons for this was that the electronic data maintained by the FAA was "dirty" and there was no defined process for cleaning up that data. Jeppesen is the only source of which I am aware that has "clean" data. Yes, they use the FAA data as input but they do have a process by which that data is verified and cross referenced. > It's the government data that is the "legal" data. You must fly your > Instrument approach using the government verified data on the current > approach plate with any NOTAMs taken into account, or it's against the > rules. If Jeppeson takes liberties with the data, and "fixes" something > in the government's certified data, then you cannot legally use their > approach plate. Now if they ADD information to the government's data, > that's OK.. They just cannot change the certified approaches in any way. We may be agreeing violently here. Certainly the Jeppesen data must be verified as correct. I think that the difference here is that you are claiming that, since the FAA uses their data and since they are the ultimate authority, that the data they release to the public in electronic form MUST be good. But where we differ is on WHAT data is the proven data. The information I had when I was working on this for a commercial project was that the only verified data was the approch plate itself, not the raw data that was initially used to create the plate. So if an error is discovered in the plate, the correction is applied to the picture of the plate and not to the original raw data. This means that the FAA raw data was never fully verified nor guaranteed to be correct even tho' the approach plate IS correct. The plate evolves as the changes are applied and there didn't used to be tracabilty back to the raw data itself. An analogy is to the technique used back in the good (bad?) old days of programming where programmers would patch the object code in core and then save the core image. The image would be correct but the original source code may or may not have ever been updated. Sure this is stupid and no one would even consider doing that today but it is a fact that this approach to debugging was used on systems in the past. It is possible that the FAA is still committing the same sin with regard to the approch data. Now it is possible that, in the last couple of years since I last looked into this, the FAA and/or NOS has put a process in place to "clean" the raw database thus producing guaranteed good data from which they can synthesize the approach plates. That may have happened and I may have missed it. But I am only human and have been known to make mistakes in the past. The only correct answer here is to go and verify the correctness of the data either by examining the data itself or by verifying the process by which the FAA verifies the data. We can argue until we are blue in the face but that doesn't change which of us is correct and neither will the eloquence of our respective arguments. Your arguments, no matter how strong, will not make it so if it isn't. > After thinking about it, I believe I know what Jeppeson basically does. And Aristotle, after thinking about it, deduced that heavy things fall faster than light things. > They provide a consistent input format. A Jeppeson database is a > standard well known format, that will not change. The government may > change their data format and different countries may have vastly > different data formats, ranging from paper maps to databases. Jeppesen uses an extension on the ARINC standard for data format. They probably are members of ARINC and had a fair bit of input and involvement in the specification of those formats. I doubt they worked in a vacuum. Also, as more types of data have been created, Jeppesen has responded by adding to the format (their own extensions) and ARINC hasn't yet changed their "standard". I don't know where the FAA sits in all this so I won't comment there other than to say that I have never been impressed with the speed with which the FAA has embraced changes. My *guess* is that the FAA lags in this process but I don't *know* for sure. > Jeppeson also crosses other government sources of information and adds > this to their data. Thus the "additions" to the standard approach > plates. I seem to remember where they added the local center's comm > frequency so if you miss the approach you will have it written some > where and some other "nice but not necessary" information. This is a matter of presentation and doesn't tell us exactly what is in the raw data. It appears that you are equating what is on the approach plate with what is in the database and I am not sure that your supposition is correct or supportable. > This is all for "in the states" data. Outside of the states, Jeppeson > does have some good data, and again in the same format. Jeppeson is > selling data in a consistent format from various government sources. I > seriously doubt they are making any modifications to the data that they > receive from the various governments around the world. Maybe and maybe not. Have you asked them? If you think about it, most of the critical data doesn't change. Airports and mountains don't move very much from one rev of the data to another. Critical navaids don't change very often either. I beleive that it is very possible that Jeppesen DOES verify the data. Remember, there are other ways to verify data than to fly your own airplane there and fly the approach. > What does this mean for us? > > Well, I'm basicly saying that if we can deliver a means for pilots to > print or view approach plates let's say. Then if we have the certified > data from the fed, you should be able to legaly use this data to fly by > in IFR conditions, assuming we can faithfuly render the data. And here is where we disagree. You have made the assumption that the approach plates are mechanically derived from the raw data and I hold that this *may* be an erronious assumption. I *know* that this asumption was incorrect a few years back but I don't know if or when this changed so I am not making any assumptions at this point. > This will eliminate the need to keep a bookcase of NOS charts in the > right seat, and you can simply print all possible charts over your > intended route, or for the area you normally fly. If you have a > computer on board, then you can load it with the data for the region > you could possibly ever fly, and have a ready referance of flyable > charts just a few keystrokes away, should you get in a spot with the > weather closing in. I know that both Jepp and the FAA are moving in this direction but I am not sure that the FAA data is ready to do this yet. WE NEED VERIFICATION! > I suspect that the FAA would be VERY picky about software that displayed > and printed such information, and would want to certify such software > before allowing it to be used for real IFR operations. But, I also > suspect that the NOS folks would be VERY interasted in the software, and > perhaps they would sponcer a FAA Review and publish "approved" versions > of the open source. No arguement there. I know of a couple of projects to do this that are quite far along. I still think that only images of the existing hard-copy approach plates from either Jepp or NOS are accpeted as being correct. Again, I may be wrong and things may have progressed to the point where synthesized approach plates are acceptable but ... But I not about to make a claim one way or the other without verification. I strongly urge you to either verify the quality of the FAA data or to continue to hold the FAA data with suspicion as I do. Don't go off assuming the data on the FAA CD-ROM is clean, correct data unless you know it to be so. Brian Lloyd brian@lloyd.com +1.530.676.6513 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 19:38:43 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:38:09 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:60059 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:37:07 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08316 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:32:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211103013.00943cd0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:30:13 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: apollo not NMEA! In-Reply-To: References: <200002111626.IAA26097@shell13.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 12:00 PM 2/11/00 -0500, you wrote: >I got this message back today from ups/apollo when I tried to >hook Vista (Moving map stuff) up to the serial port on the GX55. > >Arggh---I'm thinking this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, >but the fact is, after sniffing the data from the GX55 it doesn't >look like NMEA much (compared to the foster loran and my >delorme tripmate) > >Anyone have a GX-55? No, but I have an SL-60, a 360MAP, and a 360GPS. I know that, in the latter case, you can select several different output formats including NMEA. It is fairly obvious how to do that with the 360GPS but no with the SL-60. I think you need to ask them again. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 19:43:57 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:43:03 +0100 Received: from ariki.froghouse.org ([207.121.69.243]:51975 "HELO ariki.froghouse.org") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with SMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:42:00 +0100 Received: from ariki.froghouse.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ariki.froghouse.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146924B002 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:39:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:39:27 -0500 (EST) From: dab@froghouse.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org In-Reply-To: <38A42C98.9F28F159@cssgroup.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-Id: <20000211183930.146924B002@ariki.froghouse.org> Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list On 11 Feb, Bob_Deep wrote: > I thought that the Jeppeson approach plates, though different looking > than the NOS ones, where functionally equivalent. I think the key thing to remember is there are three sources of information, Jeppesen, FAA, and NOS. Jeppesen and NOS produce approach plates; Jeppesen and the FAA produce digital data. It's quite a leap of faith to assume that NOS plates are produced from FAA digital data without correction. A question I have for people who've looked at the FAA data, is there even enough information in there to produce a complete set of approach plates? Or even one approach plate? I expect that terrain and obstruction information is missing but what about all the rest of the stuff? I believe both Jepp and NOS plates are hand drawn. I suspect that Jepp is moving towards an automated system from data but I don't think they're there yet (reference the JeppView CDROM being full of scanned in approach plates). I have no idea what NOS is up to. -Dave - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 21:31:41 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:30:25 +0100 Received: from net-105.cmorenet.com ([216.63.204.105]:36085 "EHLO halley.cssgroup.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:29:21 +0100 Received: from cssgroup.com (bobd@babbage.cssgroup.com [192.168.10.2]) by halley.cssgroup.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA19510 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:24:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <38A47004.878E14E8@cssgroup.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 20:24:36 +0000 From: Bob_Deep X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Brian Lloyd wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Feb 2000, Bob_Deep wrote: > > > Andy Ross wrote: > > > > I thought that the Jeppeson approach plates, though different looking > > than the NOS ones, where functionally equivalent. > > They are. I use both interchangeably. > > > If memory serves, > > they added a bit more information to their approach plates, but nothing > > you could not figure out from the NOS charts you should have in the > > plane anyway. > > That is correct. > > > I also believe that it's the FAA that approves ALL instrument > > approaches, going so far as to actually fly them in a specially equipped > > aircraft to verify that everything works together right. Does Jeppeson > > verify approaches? Do they go out and spend the money to fly them? No > > they don't. > > Verification of the approach is independent of generating the charts. > You seem to be arguing that the NOS plates/charts are better than > Jeppesen. I don't think you can support that statement. Oh no.. I'm saying that the NOS stuff is the legal minimum to which Jeppeson adds. > > They got their start by making approach plates that went into binders so > > they where easier to open. > > No, Jeppesen got their start by Mr. Jeppesen actually producing the first > charts for making low-visibility arrivals into the airports to which he > flew. There were no charts in those days. He then began sharing them > with his fellow pilots. All this happened before the CAA ever got > involved. Really? Interasting history lesson, but I was simply making a guess as to why they now offer electronic stuff. When the electronic age started, they where really only a printer just like NOS is now, only they released things in a bit more user friendly way. Once the CAA aka FAA got into the business of approvaing approaches, Jeppesen was then regulated to provide what was approved.. After all it's the FAA's stamp of approval that makes the approach legal these days, not the fact that Mr Jeppesen drew up the approach plate. > > The paperback NOS plates got difficult to > > manage in-flight and if you ever dropped your NOS book, it was going to > > take some time to look up the approach plate again. > > You have the horse before the cart. Jeppesen charts were not produced in > response to the NOS charts. It was actually the other way around. I don't doubt it.. But at the point where the electronic format started, what I represneted was basicly true. Jeppeson was simply an printer of charts that where better looking and more conveient than the NOS offerings. They cost more than the NOS, but being nicer they could make money doing this. This has been the case since the CAA aka FAA started approving insterment approaches and limiting IFR operations to said approaches. The CAA may have started printing approach plates as a nice idea. > > It went from there to this "electronic" format. This type > > of data did not become popular until we started seeing LORAN units, GPS > > and Internal Nav stuff, but Jeppeson was there when the air carriers > > started looking for this data in a consistent format, so their format > > got adopted by the "big boys" long before the average Joe could afford a > > Loran or GPS unit for their very own, we just where along for the ride. > > Until very recently (if it has ever changed and I don't think it has ... > yet) the charts were hand-drawn. They were not generated electronically > by automatically compiling the data about locations, waypoints, courses, > etc. The early "electronic" approach plates were just scanned images of > the plates since that was the *only* acceptable source of approach data. > Sure it makes sense to shift off to approach plates synthesized from the > data (the amount of data required would be a lot smaller too). One of the > main reasons for this was that the electronic data maintained by the FAA > was "dirty" and there was no defined process for cleaning up that data. Perhaps then the NOS plates are the real "legal" document. If they are hand drwan then scanned for printing the FAA data may not be accurate enough to draw approach plates. But then one would wonder where Jeppeson gets their "data". Perhaps they are using a bunch of guys to re-draw the NOS stuff? If that's the case, then it really does not matter what Jeppeson does with their electronic data.. It's not really any better than the NOS printed materials, it's just the only electronic source of the data. Perhaps I am a bit to trusting that the FAA actually generates approved approach plates and charts using the data they release electroniclly... Federal does usually mean slow and behind the times. > Jeppesen is the only source of which I am aware that has "clean" data. > Yes, they use the FAA data as input but they do have a process by which > that data is verified and cross referenced. I would have to ask, verified and cross referenced agnist what? See, this is the problem. Jeppesen may have independantly obtained data, but from what source? Do they scan in the NOS approach plates and use them as a basis for theirs? Is the NOS approach plate not covered in the electronic data we are talking about? Does Jeppesen have some standard set of corrections and data integerity rules they enforce that "clean up" the faulty data from the Government? Chances are they don't really have much new information... And the NOS printers are really the source of this stuff anyway. So we are talking about two differant types of information. > > It's the government data that is the "legal" data. You must fly your > > Instrument approach using the government verified data on the current > > approach plate with any NOTAMs taken into account, or it's against the > > rules. If Jeppeson takes liberties with the data, and "fixes" something > > in the government's certified data, then you cannot legally use their > > approach plate. Now if they ADD information to the government's data, > > that's OK.. They just cannot change the certified approaches in any way. > > We may be agreeing violently here. Certainly the Jeppesen data must be > verified as correct. I think that the difference here is that you are > claiming that, since the FAA uses their data and since they are the > ultimate authority, that the data they release to the public in electronic > form MUST be good. But where we differ is on WHAT data is the proven > data. Jeppesen cannot change approaches as they are published in the NOS books. I suppose then, we need to answer the question about exactly what data the government is publishing electronicly and what claims they make about the accuracy of the data. If it's usable for real world in route navigation, one would assume that the data is good enough that you could find your way arround. If it is supposed to have approach procedures and can be used as a basis for percision and non-percision approaches, one would assume that the data in it is accurate enough to produce an approach plate for the specific approaches it has data on. If it does not have approach information in it... We are talking about differant data sets, and the Jeppeson would be the *only* source of parts of the data. The data that is common, is common.. A new VOR get's added to the FED data, it shows up in the Jeppeson data.. > The information I had when I was working on this for a commercial project > was that the only verified data was the approch plate itself, not the raw > data that was initially used to create the plate. So if an error is > discovered in the plate, the correction is applied to the picture of the > plate and not to the original raw data. This means that the FAA raw data > was never fully verified nor guaranteed to be correct even tho' the > approach plate IS correct. The plate evolves as the changes are applied > and there didn't used to be tracabilty back to the raw data itself. Then, Jeppeson is based on the NOS publication, and simply is a digital form of that, and we are then talking about differant data sets. It would be VERY nice to get an accounting of just how accurate the federal data is... So like you, I'd love to see perhaps an approach plate generation program, then we can start an independant verification that the approach plates we generate either are or are not equivilant to what the NOS publishes. When we find data errors, we get them corrected.. When we have programming errors, we fix them. Eventually, we will make the government more efficient and the data much better.. At least in theory. -- -= Bob =- Hey.. This is my mail and I charge for SPAM I receive... - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 22:06:13 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:05:19 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:4102 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 22:04:33 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20]) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12JNAE-0005pw-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:59:42 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12JNAC-0005cH-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:59:40 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:59:39 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <20000211183930.146924B002@ariki.froghouse.org> from "dab@froghouse.org" at Feb 11, 2000 01:39:27 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > On 11 Feb, Bob_Deep wrote: > > I thought that the Jeppeson approach plates, though different looking > > than the NOS ones, where functionally equivalent. > I think the key thing to remember is there are three sources of > information, Jeppesen, FAA, and NOS. Jeppesen and NOS produce > approach plates; Jeppesen and the FAA produce digital data. It's > quite a leap of faith to assume that NOS plates are produced from FAA > digital data without correction. > A question I have for people who've looked at the FAA data, is there > even enough information in there to produce a complete set of approach > plates? Or even one approach plate? I expect that terrain and > obstruction information is missing but what about all the rest of the > stuff? I have not been able to identify it all yet, I don't think ALL of the info is there. I do think most of it is, and could be very hand for secondary, and emergency purposes. I system that could instantly find the Tower, ATIS and Localizer frequency of the nearest airport meeting a previously defined criteria, and load them into the memory of your new NAV/COM or display them so you can quickly tune them, get oriented, call for help and save the 2 minutes you will take to dig your chart out could make all the difference. Granted, you would still need to dig that chart out, but you have a 2 minute head start. Those 2 minutes could make all the difference. Maybe your'e 100 miles from nowhere, and can't get center on the expected frequency. With this data it would be easy to find every communication outlet within 100 miles, along with the frequencies. There is obstruction info in the database, how far the protected area extends, and at what angles, I don't know right off, but it is included for each end of each runway. I WAS going to try and explain my point, this is getting verbose. Maybe a few clips of the data descriptions will help. With a functioning GPS or LORAN, or with some extra processing to give VOR/DME info, if you can't hit a runway with this info, you are REALLY screwed. This has been truncated to what I thought was relative to the issue at hand, The vast majority of the fields have been removed. PHYSICAL RUNWAY LENGTH (NEAREST FOOT) (EX. 3500) PHYSICAL RUNWAY WIDTH (NEAREST FOOT) (EX. 100) RUNWAY SURFACE TYPE AND CONDITION CONC - PORTLAND CEMENT CONCRETE ----------------------------------------------- BASE END INFORMATION ----------------------------------------------- BASE END IDENTIFIER (EX. FOR RUNWAY 18/36 THE BASE END IS 18) RUNWAY END TRUE ALIGNMENT TO THE NEAREST DEGREE. (EX. Rwy 18, COULD BE 184) INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM (ILS) TYPE ILS - INSTRUMENT LANDING SYSTEM LOCALIZER - LOCALIZER ----------------------------------------------- BASE END GEOGRAPHIC DATA ----------------------------------------------- LATITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END Deg Min Sec (sometimes within a few inches) LONGITUDE OF PHYSICAL RUNWAY END ELEVATION (FEET MSL) AT PHYSICAL RUNWAY END THRESHOLD CROSSING HEIGHT (FEET AGL) VISUAL GLIDE PATH ANGLE (HUNDREDTHS OF DEGREES) LATITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD LONGITUDE AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD ELEVATION AT DISPLACED THRESHOLD (FEET AGL) DISPLACED THRESHOLD - LENGTH IN FEET FROM RUNWAY END (EX. 120 OR NONE) LATITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE LONGITUDE AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE ELEVATION AT TOUCHDOWN ZONE (FEET AGL) (EX. 1200 187.5) ----------------------------------------------- BASE END LIGHTING DATA ----------------------------------------------- VISUAL GLIDE SLOPE INDICATORS S2L 2-BOX SAVASI ON LEFT SIDE OF RUNWAY S2R 2-BOX SAVASI ON RIGHT SIDE OF RUNWAY APPROACH LIGHT SYSTEM ALSAF - 3,000 FOOT HIGH INTENSITY APPROACH LIGHTING SYSTEM WITH CENTERLINE SEQUENCE FLASHERS. RUNWAY END IDENTIFIER LIGHTS (REIL) AVAILABILITY RUNWAY CENTERLINE LIGHTS AVAILABILITY RUNWAY END TOUCHDOWN LIGHTS AVAILABILITY ----------------------------------------------- BASE END OBJECT DATA ----------------------------------------------- CONTROLLING OBJECT DESCRIPTION (EX. TREES,BLDG,PLINE,FENCE,NONE) CONTROLLING OBJECT MARKED/LIGHTED M - MARKED L - LIGHTED ML - MARKED AND LIGHTED NONE FAA FAR PART 77 (OBJECTS AFFECTING NAVIGABLE AIRSPACE) RUNWAY CATEGORY A(V) - UTILITY RUNWAY WITH A VISUAL APPROACH B(V) - OTHER THAN UTILITY RUNWAY WITH A VISUAL APPROACH A(NP) - UTILITY RUNWAY WITH A NONPRECISION APPROACH C - OTHER THAN UTILITY RUNWAY WITH A NONPRECISION APPROACH HAVING VISIBILITY MINIMUMS GREATER THAN 3/4 MILE PIR - PRECISION INSTRUMENT RUNWAY CONTROLLING OBJECT CLEARANCE SLOPE VALUE, EXPRESSED AS A RATIO OF N:1, OF THE CLEARANCE THAT IS AVAILABLE TO APPROACHING AIRCRAFT. IF THE CLEARANCE SLOPE IS GREATER THAN 50:1,THEN 50 OR 50+ WILL BE ENTERED. (EX. 8,22,50) CONTROLLING OBJECT HEIGHT ABOVE RUNWAY HEIGHT, IN FEET AGL, THE OBJECT IS ABOVE THE PHYSICAL RUNWAY END. (EX. 100) CONTROLLING OBJECT DISTANCE FROM RUNWAY END DISTANCE, IN FEET, FROM THE PHYSICAL RUNWAY END TO THE CONTROLLING OBJECT. THIS IS MEASURED USING THE EXTENDED RUNWAY CENTERLINE TO A POINT ABEAM THE OBJECT. (EX. 800 0 NONE) CONTROLLING OBJECT CENTERLINE OFFSET DISTANCE, IN FEET, THAT THE CONTROLLING OBJECT IS LOCATED AWAY FROM THE EXTENDED RUNWAY CENTERLINE AS MEASURED HORIZONTALLY ON A LINE PERPENDICULAR TO THE EXTENDED RUNWAY CENTERLINE. ALSO, INDICATES THE DIRECTION (LEFT OR RIGHT) TO THE OBJECT FROM THE CENTERLINE AS SEEN BY AN APPROACHING PILOT. (EX. 50R, 75L, NONE) ----------------------------------------------- RECIPROCAL END INFORMATION ----------------------------------------------- All the same info for the other end of the runway. Additional records for each runway. REMARK TEXT FREE FORM TEXT THAT FURTHER DESCRIBES A SPECIFIC INFORMATION ITEM OR MAY BE GENERAL IN NATURE. This does not even include the info from the ILS File, SID & STAR file, NAVAID file or control facility Files. This post is probably too long already. The descriptions files are in the ftp site. > I believe both Jepp and NOS plates are hand drawn. I suspect > that Jepp is moving towards an automated system from data but I don't > think they're there yet (reference the JeppView CDROM being full of > scanned in approach plates). I have no idea what NOS is up to. Me either, and would never suggest not having one or the other handy and current, but in other ways this data is a huge superset of what is drawn on the charts. Some of this could be very useful or lifesaving at times. As a secondary source of info, it can't be beat for cost or completeness IMHO. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 11 23:54:40 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:54:07 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:58524 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:53:10 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09133 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:48:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211144718.009358c0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:47:18 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: <38A47004.878E14E8@cssgroup.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 08:24 PM 2/11/00 +0000, you wrote: >Perhaps then the NOS plates are the real "legal" document. If they are >hand drwan then scanned for printing the FAA data may not be accurate >enough to draw approach plates. But then one would wonder where >Jeppeson gets their "data". Perhaps they are using a bunch of guys to >re-draw the NOS stuff? Jeppesen has always maintained their charts independently from NOS. >If that's the case, then it really does not matter what Jeppeson does >with their electronic data.. It's not really any better than the NOS >printed materials, it's just the only electronic source of the data. You are supposing without data. I don't think you know what Jeppesen does nor do you know what NOS does. Jeppesen data has been sufficient for years. As far as enroute data is concerned, the FAA accepts Jeppesen digital data as sufficient for IFR enroute navigation. The only things the FAA accepts for approach plates are the NOS images or the Jeppesen images. As far as I know, no one has a way to synthesize approach plates from raw data ... yet. >I would have to ask, verified and cross referenced agnist what? See, >this is the problem. Jeppesen may have independantly obtained data, but >from what source? Do they scan in the NOS approach plates and use them >as a basis for theirs? Is the NOS approach plate not covered in the >electronic data we are talking about? Does Jeppesen have some standard >set of corrections and data integerity rules they enforce that "clean >up" the faulty data from the Government? I believe that I see a disconnection here. We keep getting coming back to approach plates. The only valid approach plates are the hardcopy ones produced by NOS or Jeppesen. The only electronic versions of those are images that have been scanned and stored. They are just facsimile. The FAA data we have been talking about is completely separate and has no connection to the approach plates. Enroute data, e.g. navaids, waypoints, route segments, etc., are a completely separate proposition. I believe that the cleanest source for this electronic data is Jeppesen. The FAA also has this data but I do not believe it to be "clean." >Chances are they don't really have much new information... And the NOS >printers are really the source of this stuff anyway. So we are talking >about two differant types of information. Yes. Approach plates and enroute nav data. >I suppose then, we need to answer the question about exactly what data >the government is publishing electronicly and what claims they make >about the accuracy of the data. Yes. >If it's usable for real world in route navigation, one would assume that >the data is good enough that you could find your way arround. One would hope so. Flying into mountains or terrain features could ruin your whole day. >If it is >supposed to have approach procedures and can be used as a basis for >percision and non-percision approaches, one would assume that the data >in it is accurate enough to produce an approach plate for the specific >approaches it has data on. Someday it may be. Right now it is not acceptible for that. >If it does not have approach information in it... We are talking about >differant data sets, and the Jeppeson would be the *only* source of >parts of the data. Right. >The data that is common, is common.. A new VOR get's added to the FED >data, it shows up in the Jeppeson data.. Right. How that data gets into Jeppesen's database is not critical. It may be from the FAA or it may come from other sources. >Then, Jeppeson is based on the NOS publication, and simply is a digital >form of that, and we are then talking about differant data sets. I don't believe that Jeppesen is base on the NOS plates. I believe that Jeppesen draws their own approach plates independently from NOS. The are separate, parallel sources of approach plates. >It would be VERY nice to get an accounting of just how accurate the >federal data is... So like you, I'd love to see perhaps an approach >plate generation program, then we can start an independant verification >that the approach plates we generate either are or are not equivilant to >what the NOS publishes. When we find data errors, we get them >corrected.. When we have programming errors, we fix them. Generating approaches from individual data elements can happen. I did some of the early ones for the Elite flight simulator before it was released .(I played with the beta version back in 1990 and entered all the data to allow all the approaches in the LA area.) Now all that has to happen is for the FAA to approve that. hahahahahahaha! Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Sat Feb 12 00:00:48 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:59:38 +0100 Received: from keith.fenris.net ([158.222.0.2]:60060 "EHLO keith.fenris.net") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:58:54 +0100 Received: from murray (keith.fenris.net [158.222.0.2]) by keith.fenris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09147 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:54:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000211145124.00959320@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brian@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:51:24 -0800 To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) In-Reply-To: References: <20000211183930.146924B002@ariki.froghouse.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list At 01:59 PM 2/11/00 -0700, you wrote: > >> On 11 Feb, Bob_Deep wrote: > >I WAS going to try and explain my point, this is getting verbose. >Maybe a few clips of the data descriptions will help. Oh, no question that it is *possible* to synthesize an approach plate from the FAA/Jeppesen ARINC data, given that the data is known to be correct. It is just that it isn't legal to do so yet. As I indicated in my previous posting, I have done this for the Elite flight sim and then flown the approaches I synthesized. You really don't need all that much data. Brian Lloyd Lucent Technologies brian@lloyd.com 3461 Robin Lane, Suite 1 http://www.livingston.com Cameron Park, CA 95682 +1.530.676.6513 - voice +1.530.676.3442 - fax - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Sat Feb 12 01:45:30 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:44:46 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:35341 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:44:11 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20]) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12JQan-00030H-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:21 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12JQam-0005V7-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Subscription to NASD CD-ROM (was: embedded ...) To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:20 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000211145124.00959320@127.0.0.1> from "Brian Lloyd" at Feb 11, 2000 02:51:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > Oh, no question that it is *possible* to synthesize an approach plate from > the FAA/Jeppesen ARINC data, given that the data is known to be correct. > It is just that it isn't legal to do so yet. This is the third time you have said this, and I have not seen a Cite yet. Based on what regulation? Where does it say NOS AND Jepp is legal and any other source of current info is not? It may not be be smart, but not illegal. > As I indicated in my previous posting, I have done this for the Elite > flight sim and then flown the approaches I synthesized. You really don't > need all that much data. > I'm not talking about making stuff up, The Approaches are in the data. Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Mon Feb 14 17:36:55 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:35:58 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:54473 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:35:27 +0100 Received: from kdm2.dental-com.com ([12.6.48.4]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with SMTP id RAA08433 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:30:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from todd (unverified [12.6.51.79]) by kdm2.dental-com.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:45:11 -0500 From: "Todd Shirey" To: Subject: CDROM Data. Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 11:26:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Did one of you say you had converted the fixed length files to delimited ? What sizes did you end up with ? - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Mon Feb 14 18:31:30 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:30:38 +0100 Received: from mail.xmission.com ([198.60.22.22]:4364 "EHLO mail.xmission.com") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:30:17 +0100 Received: from xmission.xmission.com ([198.60.22.20] ident=root) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #3) id 12KPFP-00054X-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:25:19 -0700 Received: from dfs by xmission.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12KPFO-0005hK-00 for linux-aviation@nl.linux.org; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: Re: CDROM Data. To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:25:17 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "Todd Shirey" at Feb 14, 2000 11:26:22 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: "D.F.S." Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list > > Did one of you say you had converted the fixed length files to delimited ? > What sizes did you end up with ? > I did. I only did it with the apt file. I posted the info, and the perl code I used. I never heard a word form anyone, and have not done anything more with the code since. The apt file was split into 3 files. The reason for that, is almost all the these files have more than one record type in them, the database guy in me couldn't swallow that. The apt file contains general airport info, runway info for each runway and additional remarks. there are variable numbers of the last 2 types. Nothing was removed from the files, data or field-wise. Nothing was done to encode or compress the data. IE things like "Airframe Service: "MINOR or MINOR or NONE"" could easily be encoded in 4 bits, rather than 5 chars. The short info on the file sizes is this: Original File: 102,171,238 Feb 2 13:05 apt.txt Straight delimited text: 9,184,999 Feb 4 11:03 apt.apt.delimited 4,766,349 Feb 4 11:03 apt.rmk.delimited 3,934,793 Feb 4 11:03 apt.rwy.delimited gzip *.delimited: 2,198,942 Feb 4 11:03 apt.apt.delimited.gz 1,296,794 Feb 4 11:03 apt.rmk.delimited.gz 779,955 Feb 4 11:03 apt.rwy.delimited.gz Marc - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 18 15:19:43 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:19:15 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:26529 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:18:42 +0100 Received: from kdm2.dental-com.com ([12.6.48.4]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with SMTP id PAA16436 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:13:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from todd (unverified [12.6.51.79]) by kdm2.dental-com.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:28:36 -0500 From: "Todd Shirey" To: Subject: Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:09:22 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list Has anybody determined how get class C, D ect. airspace from the data on the CD ? The only airspace I see is special use (MOA, restricted ect) and boundries for control centers. Todd Shirey - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to . From owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Fri Feb 18 20:03:06 2000 Received: by humbolt.nl.linux.org id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:02:24 +0100 Received: from terra.geo.uu.nl ([131.211.29.16]:3501 "EHLO terra.geo.uu.nl") by humbolt.nl.linux.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:02:08 +0100 Received: from smtp.umr.edu (mrelay.cc.umr.edu [131.151.1.89]) by terra.geo.uu.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3/TvZ) with ESMTP id TAA02699 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 19:57:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from umr-mail01.cc.umr.edu (umr-mail01.cc.umr.edu [131.151.37.121]) via ESMTP by mrelay.cc.umr.edu (8.9.3/R.4.20) id MAA29751; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:56:06 -0600 Received: by umr-mail01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:56:37 -0600 Message-ID: <9DA8D24B915BD1118911006094516EAF029EF0EA@umr-mail02> From: "Neulinger, Nathan R." To: "'linux-aviation@nl.linux.org'" Subject: Weather graphics... Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:56:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: owner-linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linux-aviation@nl.linux.org Return-Path: X-Orcpt: rfc822;linux-aviation-list I've started working on figuring out the NAPLPS specification/docs so that I can implement a routine to view the weather graphics images provided by DUATS. I'm initially intending to have the program just be a NAPLPS->PostScript converter. Since it's so easy to have ghostscript make images available, and easy to test with, that's how I'll start. Once that is done, it should be easy enough to adapt the code to output to other formats. -- Nathan ------------------------------------------------------------ Nathan Neulinger EMail: nneul@umr.edu University of Missouri - Rolla Phone: (573) 341-4841 Computing Services Fax: (573) 341-4216 - Archives of linux-aviation: http://mail.nl.linux.org/lists/linux-aviation/ To unsubscribe: send the command "unsubscribe linux-aviation" in the body of a mail message to .